[hellcow]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see anything that the manager is doing wrong. We can debate whether the manager is effective at her job, but it seems clear to me this is not an example of sexism.

The only citation I can find relevant to the claim of sexism is that she was asked not to wear a tank-top to work. It may very well be that a tank-top is inappropriate attire at Uber's workplace. At IBM and many other companies, it certainly would be inappropriate, and it doesn't sound out of place at all for a manager to ask an employee to wear more professional clothing.

The employee writing this is openly hostile to HR about her manager and for reasons I can't understand. "All of the insolence and harassment I face has damaged my views of Uber and made it really difficult to continue working here." Because she was asked to work at her desk and not wear a tank-top?

[thehardsphere]

Read a little more carefully. The problem here isn't really "sexism", it's that "Tina" has an insecure personality that feels threatened by the people on her team, and thus is marginalizing everyone on it who sticks out in an attempt to establish dominance.

You're correct that a good manager could make a comment about a tank top being inappropriate attire at a given office. But note when Tina said this: it was when the author was talking to another manager to leave the team. Tina isn't giving constructive advice; she's trying to stop the author from forming relationships with other managers. Note also, that Tina led the feedback with disparaging Mark, by saying that Mark was staring at the author's breasts. The implication is "Mark doesn't have your best interests in mind, he's simply a pig; I have your best interests in mind by telling you to cover up, which is advice I think you need to hear."

[caminante]

Hellcow does understand the nuance you're raising.

Respectfully, I don't think this blog post would get play if it didn't have the female-on-female sexism angle.

The title's misleading: "Sexism at Uber from female management #UberStory"

[thehardsphere]

> Respectfully, I don't think this blog post would get play if it didn't have the female-on-female sexism angle.

Probably entirely accurate.

[edblarney]

"that "Tina" has an insecure personality that feels threatened by the people on her team, and thus is marginalizing everyone on it who sticks out in an attempt to establish dominance."

Maybe 'Tina' is a bad boss, but to take one employees gripes and accept a face value that she has they behavioural awareness to know her boss is 'insecure' is a stretch too far.

Sometimes, people look at bold and arrogant people and say 'oh, they must be insecure', when maybe they're just plain old jerkoffs.

I see a story of a generally crappy boss, but that's not entirely uncommon in the world. In fact, it's common.

The issue I think would relate to how it's either systematic or not at Uber.

[thehardsphere]

> Maybe 'Tina' is a bad boss, but to take one employees gripes and accept a face value that she has they behavioural awareness to know her boss is 'insecure' is a stretch too far.

I would agree with you if the author of the article put forth 'insecurity' as an explanation. But she didn't; that was my interpretation of the claims presented in the story as they were written. And yes, I did take them at face value, just for the purpose of illustrating that it's plausible to wonder if there's more going on here than tank tops.

I mean, the author doesn't exhibit any behavioral awareness. The author presents one email she wrote to HR as a complaint, claims HR did nothing about it, labels her boss and HR as sexist, and says things need to change. She's more concerned with the atmosphere at Uber that allowed her complaint to be ignored than anything else.

[RickS]

>it seems clear to me this is not an example of sexism.

>she was asked not to wear a tank-top to work

She was not "asked not to wear a tank top to work". Her manager directly linked her (sane) clothing choices to the implication of promiscuity and its impact on her career, with an anecdote about one of her previous coworkers social habits and underwear.

That's inexcusable.

The employee's email is not "openly hostile to HR". She is descriptive of a hostile situation, and upfront about its impact. There's perhaps some subjectivity here, but I don't think it's nearly the same thing.

Your comment seems to do some gymnastics to trivialize a story full of conduct that, if true, is unambiguously improper.

[Rapzid]

I've re-read this, and re-reviewed the definition of sexism which is quite broad.

I think the case could be made that the manager was actually displaying sexism towards Mark. How? By believing/saying that his decisions would be motivated by what kind of top the author was wearing. This is clearly an old stereotype of males and pretty much definition sexism.

Her manager also comes of as an ass in this article; not sure what's true though.

[MBCook]

That's a good point, that probably would qualify as sexism against Mark.

[tomp]

"Don't wear revealing/sexy clothing" seems to be a common requirement at many jobs, and not sexist at all - though clearly it would be tailored specifically to the (inappropriate) clothes an individual is wearing.

[cholantesh]

I work in the financial sector. In the summer months especially, it is common to see women dressed in sleeveless tops. I would argue that sexualizing one's peers is much more unprofessional than dressing for comfort.

[watwut]

Tank tops seem to be pretty normal in jobs where a lot of young women work (except in positions that deals directly with customers). Judging by what I have seen women wear last year.

If it seems too revealing to someone, that someone is probably spending all time with males or old women only.

[vkou]

> Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see anything that the manager is doing wrong. We can debate whether the manager is effective at her job, but it seems clear to me this is not an example of sexism.

As a man, I have never had a single manager comment on the clothes I've chosen to wear at work... Or had my attire compared to a guy playing ping-pong in a speedo.

[huffmsa]

Wear some pants that clearly reveal the outline of the jewels. See what happens. Report back to us.

>You also just might not be that attractive.

[vkou]

Pretty sure that's not appropriate work attire in a tech firm.

Pretty sure that a tank-top is.

[jquast]

I witnessed male worker fired on the spot for wearing jeans to work instead of slacks (general motors). I was also once given a warning when my belt and shoes did not match (black and brown).

I went to a business college, and we were taught to dress professionally, I think we spent a full day on the topic in "business communications" course. We most definitely discussed that cleavage should not be shown and dress length should be appropriate. I worked in this college as a tutor, and we also required button-up shirts, tucked in, with a belt, and dress shoes, even though we made minimum wage. "Dress for respect"

[vkou]

GM is not a <typical tech company where torn jeans are completely appropriate>.

Does Uber have a dress code, besides tech-casual? From the sounds of it, GM did.

[user5994461]

> As a man, I have never had a single manager comment on the clothes I've chosen to wear at work...

Happened to me a few times for various attires.

So far, it has an incredibly high correlation with bad management.

[nanodano]

I am with you. The manager may not be nicest person around, but I don't think they did anything wrong really. Tank tops are inappropriate office attire IMHMO and this girl does not want to accept that.

[socrates1998]

Making someone work only at their desk? That's some stupid, 3rd grade teacher crap.

It sends the very clear message "You can't do your job, so I am going to watch you like a 10 year old."

Fuck that. I would rather be homeless than deal with that shit.

[cholantesh]

She was told that her body was a distraction and should dress modestly to remedy this. That's sexism writ large.

[nanodano]

At what point is a manager allowed to tell an employee their clothing is inappropriate for work? What line must be crossed before that happens? Ever? Are they ever allowed to say "that outfit is inappropriate"?

[MichaelGG]

Why is it sexism? Perhaps she was the only one with a distracting body? How do we know non-female workers didn't get a talking to for wearing certain clothing?

How do we know it's not jealousy or personal vendetta?

[M4v3R]

In my book that's just common sense, not sexism.

[watwut]

My body being distracting to you should be your problem not mine. Unless the guys are criticised for wearing young guy fashion (or looking attractive) too.

[sebastos]

Okay, I'm a guy, I'll show up for work on Monday completely naked. If any of my coworkers so much as glances downward I'll let that sexist swine hear about it. Should be cool, right? It's THEIR problem, after all.

It's a workplace. You don't just do whatever you feel like doing. You closely manage your appearance, demeanor, and conversation to be as helpful and productive as possible. You don't tell rude jokes because they might not be in others' taste. You don't leave trash lying around because some of your coworkers might be bigger neat-freaks than you. You don't sing to yourself loudly at your desk, blast music from your workstation without headphones, or wear a shirt that says "Go Fuck Yourself" on it. These aren't rules that are being enforced on the general population. They're a code of conduct for a cohort of like-minded people who are voluntarily working under that contract of behavior to accomplish something. We're trying to get work done here. It's not about restricting you, it's about enhancing the productivity of the whole. A manager should try their best not to make somebody feel self-conscious about what they're wearing - it's distracting and unpleasant. But that employee shouldn't put their manager in a situation where they feel like they have to mention it. Any given person, garment and culture might be on one side of that line or the other. It's a two-way street. You sacrifice hundreds of freedoms every day you go to work. Dress code isn't magically excluded just because men are more prone to visual distraction than women.

[Marconium]

This is very selfish.

[st3v3r]

"Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see anything that the manager is doing wrong"

If that's the case, then never, ever go into management.

[huffmsa]

Easy fix:

Mandatory dress codes. Men in suit, with tie from the time you enter the office until the time you leave. Women in suits, pants or skirts.

Or go whole hog and require everyone to wear grey coveralls when in office.

Institutions with dress codes generally have less BS distractions because the distractions simply can't exist.

[mahyarm]

If tech companies were to ever have a dress code, it would be jeans, a graphic tee and a full sleeve hoodie. Or a collared shirt. The hoodie might still be required.

[huffmsa]

Because IBM wasn't a tech company who's (unofficial) uniform was blue suit, white shirt, red tie, brown wingtips for nearly two decades.

Come now child, learn your history.

[Neliquat]

This is an easy way to drive away talent. Myself, and I feel, many others, would gladly take a similar job where the culture and dress were relaxed, instead of fixed. The fix is to hire socially competent people, and be clear to them when they are pushing it early and often.

[huffmsa]

"Naw man, I'm not going to work there because I _need_ my bedazzled dungarees to code well."

Please.

[ceras]

It wouldn't stop me from joining a company that's clearly better than the rest. But engineers have a lot of comparably good options in hub cities, so it's reasonable to be picky about small stuff - we can afford to be. A formal dress code does have real downsides: it (1) costs money, (2) wastes closet space (it's a premium in NYC!), and (3) makes biking to work or otherwise living a pre-/post-work active life more of a pain.

[huffmsa]

The mistake you're making is that "work clothing" needs to be separate from your "after work clothing".

NYC there is no excuse for not finding good and reasonably priced tailors.

You might get dirty looks from those who look worse than you, but suits do in fact make the man.

[sudosteph]

Here in Seattle absolutely everyone would give you dirty looks. I don't trust anyone in a suit, and I don't think they make a man look anything other than sleazy.

Different cultures, different perceptions. Tech culture as a whole does not share the NYC mentality that suits are a reasonable norm. Dress codes just don't jive with a need for authenticity. Give me the weird guy wearing a kilt over the slick sales guy in a suit any day.

[ceras]

I'm fairly active and don't care for feeling hot in the summers or restricted in general. Feel free to rock your own suit, but it's not a "mistake" to disagree with you.

[st3v3r]

Most other things being equal, and they usually are, I'm going to take the job with the more relaxed dress code.

[stale2002]

A dress code is a red flag.

It is not about being forced to wear clothes. It is about working with a management team who is so incompetent that they would do something so stupid as implement a dress code.

[PhasmaFelis]

That's a reasonable accommodation in a high school, where students are expected to have out-of-control hormones and not-fully-developed judgment.

In a professional office, if you have a grown-ass adult who is critically distracted by the sight of bare arms, that's their problem, not anyone else's. If they can't manage the barest scraps of self-control, they need to consider a different line of work.

[huffmsa]

It's not just high school, I'll use professional sports as a quick (but not all-inclusive) example.

The Bill Belichick and Nick Saban enforce strict behavior and dress codes for their employees to simply eliminate distractions. Break the rules and they fire you. They're the most successful "mission oriented" teams of the past two decades.

Uniforms contribute to the sense of "unity in direction" that the best companies have. They should be something that you're proud to wear as a signifier of your work, see IBM in the 70s and 80s.

[js8]

> Uniforms contribute to the sense of "unity in direction" that the best companies have. They should be something that you're proud to wear as a signifier of your work, see IBM in the 70s and 80s.

Do people really believe this? Funny, at my workplace, we effectively don't have a dress code (we did have at a point, but nobody really cared much, so it's pretty much dead). But my company is probably very embarrassed if I tell somebody my salary, because it doesn't want me to do it.

So, until I can display my salary proudly, then we can talk about wearing my "uniform" proudly.

"Dress code" is a tool for social control, and people are slowly wisening up to that.

[user5994461]

So, distribute clothes to your employees.

Bonus: You set the message by choosing to give tshirts, shirts or suits.

[huffmsa]

I'd certainly be happy to offer discounted tailoring / suiting and other clothing purchases.

"Look good, feel good, play good." -- Deion Sanders

[sudosteph]

- Times I've ever been distracted by a coworkers outfit: 0

- Times I've ever been distracted by conversations/music/movement/laughter in my open office: 9000+

Yep. Outfits are the only cause of BS distractions that can exist in offices...