[anexprogrammer]

We're still asking the wrong question.

The frustrating thing is we were doing miles better in the 80s, even though to be evironmentally aware then meant you were thought of as some sort of hippie or anarchist type.

Lots of supermarkets still sold milk in glass bottles as used by milkmen. You returned the empties to the store/milkman and they could be reused indefinitely. Milkmen delivering to door were still common.

A couple of supermarkets had bio-degradeable carrier bags that were just as good as plastic, they just had a slightly different (nicer tbh) texture. They had mysteriously disppeared by the 90s, so presumably cost a fraction more.

Most products had yet to succumb to the insanity of plastic and packaging. Lots of pop (soda) came in glass bottles or cans, just a few preferred plastic. Sealed packs of 3 slices of ham or one apple were still in some dystopian future. Paper, card and greaseproof paper were still common packaging.

A typical family would get nowhere near the amount of waste an average family generates in these "environmentally aware" times.

[Pamar]

In Germany water bottles have an automatic markup of 25 eurocents/bottle. Every supermarket has special devices that will scan the bottle barcode and give you back 25 cents for each compatible bottle you put in - the money is delivered as a coupon you can use at the cashier to pay for stuff (you can also ask for cash if you want).

[anexprogrammer]

Sometime in the 80s or 90s there was interest in introducing the same as plastic was starting to be used for more bottles. From memory it was very popular with the public at the time. Nothing ever came of it, so presumably the Thatcher govt considered it an unfair imposition on businesses.

So now we have towns and hedgerows full of discarded plastic bottles.

[oriolid]

Finland has the same system. A nice side effect is that since the bottles are supposed to be reusable, they are thick and sturdy plastic instead of the paper thin disposable ones.

[mrspeaker]

It is so hard to buy lunch in NYC without ending up with a frightening amount of plastic (and paper) waste.

There is a start-up-esque thing called Eatsa that is sort of an "automated take-out" place: I go there a lot - not because the food is mind-blowing or I hate interacting with people, but because I can just take the cardboard bowl of food (with a thin plastic top: not good, but "least bad") and not be forced to have a plastic bag, 50 napkins, tonnes of plastic cutlery (fast-moving lines means it's hard to opt-out).

There was a couple of cafes in Australia that were doing "waste-free" (maybe it was http://lupiicafe.com/ ) operations - I hope that this catches on, because I feel like an asshat every time I throw an industrial-strength plastic food container in the bin.

[nextos]

It's even worse. Many composite packages we get today (cardboard / tin + plastic cover inside and outside) are notoriously hard to recycle in terms of energy and waste produced.

Plus, they leach plastics into food.

Returning to glass would be a huge step forward. I think the key would be get glass cans and bottles refilled in warehouses close to the customer, as it happened before with small producers.

[ams6110]

Glass bottles are heavy. Trucking all that extra weight (compared to plastic) around uses more fuel resulting in more CO2 emissions.

They also have to be thoroughly washed and sanitized before re-use, which uses more energy.

There is a reason that plastic replaced almost all use of glass bottles for beverages.

[anexprogrammer]

Except no.

Plastic milk containers and bottles have to be thoroughly washed before recycling as the plastic is incredibly easy to corrupt with contaminants. Every roadside recycling scheme I've been a part of has required all tins, bottles and glass to be washed before recycling. (Seems pointless in the case of tins as the food debris will be burnt off along with paint etc as the metals are melted).

PET washing in a recycling line needs to be higher temperature as they also use the washing to disolve the glues used for outside labels etc.

The integrated washing of all bottles joining a reusable glass bottle line likely used a fraction of the cleaning energy now expended.

[misterbwong]

Miles better in one sense (waste accumulation/environment) but miles worse in at least one other: convenience.

Guess which one is more important to the general consumer? People voted with their wallets.

[tonyedgecombe]

I'm not absolutely sure it was better environmentally either, cleaning those returns has a cost, poorly packaged food means more food wastage right from the farm to the consumer.