[makmanalp]

I don't find this type of argument very useful because usually instead of making specific, falsifiable criticisms of the literature, this argument starts with "wow, scientists can be wrong or prone to human biases sometimes" which turns into a general "I have a touchy-feely sense that maybe some stuff is wrong with climate science", which quickly turns into "I guess most of the literature out there is completely wrong and thus we can do away with those conclusions regardless of the volume of evidence" to "I guess everyone and every viewpoint has an equal chance of being right".

Of course scientists make mistakes. Of course there is dogma and politics. Of course this has an effect, and of course we should take this seriously - and scientists can and do take it seriously. For example, look up the "reproducibility crisis" - some of the harshest criticism of existing science is yet again made by practicing scientists. But this is different than armchair handwringing.

[cderwin]

You're right that non-scientific pressures existing isn't sufficient to support the position that scientific research is inaccurate. However, it certainly is solid ground for exercising a bit of skepticism about scientific research -- particularly when it is well documented that the political distribution of scientists does not reflect that of the greater population and the scientific issue at hand has become political.

Moreover, there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among non-experts to discredit this skepticism as being "anti-science" or being the work of climate-change "deniers." For example, see here[0]. The commenter laments that non-experts might suggest a criticism of peer-reviewed work without being an expert themselves on that criticism. He or she even accuses them of arguing in bad faith ("They'll put on all the plumage of reasonable dissent") and suggests that anyone who has not undergone the rigor of peer review is not qualified to have an opinion ("peer review or STFU"). I fear that if there were valid criticism to be heard, it would at best only fall on deaf ears.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13739382

[euyyn]

> particularly when it is well documented that the political distribution of scientists does not reflect that of the greater population and the scientific issue at hand has become political.

The issue at hand has become political in the USA, whereas there's plenty of science outside. This is like the "teaching evolution" debate. Even within the US, what would the "political pressure" argument be? That the Democratic party is trying to make people believe in AGW just so they can get to power and raise taxes?

[makmanalp]

> I fear that if there were valid criticism to be heard, it would at best only fall on deaf ears.

I'm not closed to this point of view, but it sure seems to be a rare case indeed.

If you look at it from the reverse perspective, climate scientists have been explaining /basic/ material and conclusions to deniers for decades now. If you want to criticize, I don't think there should be a peer-review barrier but you sure should at least be familiar with the body of work you're criticizing. Or else, how could you possibly contribute anything of substance? Go read the IPCC reports, or /something/. That's just common sense. A lot of criticism fails to meet that minimum bar, and also has usually been addressed beforehand.

I'm not a climate scientist, but right now I'm taking a graduate level class in databases and data systems. We're reading a lot of papers, some from academia and some from industry. But what I'm realizing is how lacking in nuance and content the discussions on even highly technical places like HN can be at times. Like when I see stuff like "NoSQL is bad for joins", it's like "really? on what system? under what conditions?". The ease with which laymen can assert conclusive-sounding statements on a whim is terrifying. The more you learn, the more you get the opposite instinct - to withhold judgement until something seems very clear. This destroys conversation dynamics when scientists are pitted against climate deniers. And a lot of times, I suspect that the arguments made fall in the "not even wrong" category. Then, the people who make the assertions aren't even willing to listen to the counterargument because it's "too technical". As if everything has a pithy one-liner response. In the end, this results in a massive amount of frustration on the part of the scientists, which leads us to the pickle we're in today.

Anyway, this discussion reminds me of the whole discussion in the 50s/60s about the health effects of smoking, and how it took forever for doctors and scientists to convince people that this was real. All the tobacco industry had to do was to criticize specific bits and pieces, discredit specific researchers, call things "inconclusive", and suddenly their criticism was as legitimate as a huge body of research. That's the dangerous bit here. Take a look: http://www.who.int/tobacco/media/en/TobaccoExplained.pdf