[WayneBro]

I feel like I'm in prison or an insane asylum when I have to use my Mac or iOS devices after enjoying the freedom that I have using Windows all day.

I could go very far into detail here and list all of the extremely annoying limitations that I run into, but instead I'll respond to your vague complaints with my own. Apple quite obviously wants absolute control over their device and their software whereas Microsoft lets me to do whatever I want with my computers and my software.

I have to have a Mac to make iOS apps, but as soon as those are no longer a thing I'll toss all my Mac stuff straight into the garbage.

[mattnewton]

I've had the opposite experience. OSX is just weird bsd with a great window manager and ui framework. You can easily sidestep gatekeeper, if that is your complaint.

The hardware fit and finish is also second to none, and runs windows just fine if that's your thing.

The alternative on windows is a machine that spies on me, has horrible ui bugs and inconsistencies I run into constantly, and decides to auto update and reset all my privacy settings in the middle of the night while I am using the machine.

Not to mention it is often used with some awful trackpad. I haven't tried them all but I have never seen a non-mac trackpad I could go back to.

[AlexandrB]

> The alternative on windows is a machine that spies on me, has horrible ui bugs and inconsistencies I run into constantly, and decides to auto update and reset all my privacy settings in the middle of the night while I am using the machine.

This exactly. I'm still baffled by claims that Windows 10 has a good desktop UI when I see its iconography [1], huge click (touch) targets [2], and wildly inconsistent use of whitespace [3]. That's not even mentioning the forced updates and always-on telemetry. I'm not sure how one can say macOS is more of a walled garden than Windows at this point, at least macOS's security features will get out of your way if you ask nicely.

[1] http://www.intowindows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Change...

[2] https://cdn2.pcadvisor.co.uk/cmsdata/features/3632303/how_to...

[3] https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/...

[kbenson]

> I'm still baffled by claims that Windows 10 has a good desktop UI when I see its iconography [1], huge click (touch) targets [2], and wildly inconsistent use of whitespace [3].

This almost reads as sarcasm. Some people really don't care about those things, and using them as examples of why you're baffled just highlights that disconnect between you and them. I don't use any bundled windows apps, and I'm rarely in the settings (and I just search for what setting I want), so iconography and whitespace design decisions in windows apps don't even factor into it for me.

Neither OS X nor Windows feel as comfortable as my customized FVWM config did, but windows gets a lot closer nowadays. I had to use OS X at work for a few years and it always grated.

> That's not even mentioning the forced updates

It's possible to disable them, you just have to put some effort into it (it requires regedit). I think this is the right decision. If you want to disable updates and you don't know how to change a registry setting, then for the good of us all, the answer is no.

The tracking is a valid concern though.

[mattnewton]

I want automatic updates. I think this is a good thing. Chrome automatically updates whenever I restart it. This is great.

I don't want updates when I am in the middle of something full screen like a game, forcing a restart of the machine on me. This is madness.

I don't want ads for office 365, Cortana or edge on my desktop. I don't want to learn how to block them. I don't want to use an OS that feels like it is being milked for all it's worth in its dying breaths.

[kbenson]

It always asks me, and I can delay it. You've actually had it force an update right then while playing a game, and without having told it "no, delay it" multiple consecutive times (I believe it will only let you delay it 2-3 times)?

Edit: Also, have you set your active hours? Windows allows you to define the times you use your system so it won't attempt to update during those times. Additionally, you can set a specific custom restart time for when it will restart.

[cloverich]

> Edit: Also, have you set your active hours?

I tried to. I play games for a few hours either at night or early am -- say 6pm-1am or 5am-9am are my possible slots. Unfortunately, windows update will not accommodate this -- you are only allowed to set one window with an 8 (maybe 12) hour max, and it must be consecutive. I had to dig around to find this, and it still is not sufficient. I ultimately solved my problem by using the regex editor to convince windows I was on a metered internet connection. Unfortunately, this broke update all together. I turned it back and now its still broken -- apparently the magic auto-updater is the only way get updates -- there's no button I can click to just download the latest update and install it? (at this point I gave up)

I mean... that's just insane.

[mattnewton]

The window inconsistently interrupts my game. Some games it is able to rip me out of it mid session to tell me to restart, other times it silently times out in the background despite my computer running at full blast.

I have set active hours but for some reason my windows partition - and not my ubunutu partition, so it isn't a hardware issue - does not reliably remember my time zone. It is often reset without rhyme or reason to this random default (I think NYC). I don't always notice and change the time one when it boots up because I have steam launch in big picture mode.

Also, why does it even need to ask for active hours by default? I am using the machine at full-throttle. That is a really easy metric for "maybe wait until later". It's already logging everything I do and sending it to Microsoft, it would be nice to see some usuabiltiy features come out of all that data

Inconsistently working is a commmon theme of my experiences with windows. I am routinely baffled that I paid $100 for this experience and wish that there was better Linux game support for AAA titles. I know I throw my money that way whenever possible.

[phaed]

Plenty of ways to disable the automatic restarts. Easiest is setting the Group Policy in a few clicks.

http://tunecomp.net/disable-automatic-reboot-after-updates-i...

I agree its a good feature to ship enabled by default. Grandma who leaves her computer on for years at a time needs to have her security updates up to date.

[kevingrahl]

I wouldn't call myself an unexperienced user at all but even after months of trying to disable the auto updates in W10 through all sort of settings and tweaks I gave up on it. Whatever I did it never lasted for long. When I'm not in control of my own machine what's the point? I have switched to a Linux distro and haven't regretted it.

[laythea]

"...runs windows just fine if that's your thing."

I have a 2015 MPB and used it for 1 year before switching it to Windows because I got fed up of the apple dev environment.

It doesn't just run windows fine, it runs Windows with amazing speed compared to macOS. Everything feels (and is) snappier. I'm still left with a very expensive and under-powered machine.

PS. Installing Little Snitch, one becomes immediately aware that macOS does talk to base....a lot!

[tornadoboy55]

Sorry but that's just blatant lying. Apple takes great care of optimizing its OS and apps for its hardware, to the point where it's possible to use Final Cut Pro on the anemic MacBook 12 somewhat comfortably(!)

[laythea]

Yes, apple does optimize. I'm not disputing that; neither starting a silly "apple vs" debate. I am no fan boy of either mac or PC - I just use whatever is best.

The point is, that "equivalent software" runs faster. I would wager that if Final Cut Pro was for Windows, and you run it on the very same MacBook12, it would run faster on Windows. Despite this, using Final Cut Pro an example is a bad one, because it was developed by Apple itself (and therefore assumed to be highly optimized to the OS) and it is not available for windows.

It is more useful to compare an equivalent 3rd party (neither made by apple or microsoft) application. I'm a developer, so I use a lot more software than just "apps" so maybe if you try to use a wider set of software, the difference in platforms will become apparent.

Admittingly, I don't have numbers. But I don't need numbers, because you can feel the difference as a user. Install it and see for yourself!

[WorldMaker]

Microsoft takes great care for optimizing its OS and apps for any hardware, to the point where it's possible to run Windows 10 on 10 year old hardware somewhat comfortably. To the point where the Windows 10 Kernel and a lot of the Windows 10 Core (OneCore) runs on mobile and IoT hardware...

[woah]

To me, MacOS just seems like the best desktop UI and UX out there. I'm talking about stuff like font rendering, gestures, multiple desktops, etc. All of these things on the Mac have clearly had a huge amount of thought put into them. And since these things mediate your entire interaction with the computer, it's a big factor for me.

Windows seems to be a combination of 90's era throwbacks and 2edgy4you Metro design. If they've managed to improve this stuff recently I would be interested in switching, since there's a huge tax on hardware specs with Apple computers.

[kbenson]

How recent is recently? Windows 7 was the first windows version I didn't dread using for years, Windows 8 was a small refinement on that, and Windows 10 is a vast improvement on that.

Windows 10 feels like it just wants to get out of my way, which is really nice, since for me the gold standard is a customized FVWM config I refined over a decade to be minimalist and extremely usable for work.

If you haven't used Windows 10, it's probably worth at least a look (as long as you don't mind or have ways to mitigate the privacy concerns).

[woah]

I'll take a look. Does the ubuntu subsystem make it work like a real computer for programming tasks?

[Keyframe]

I'm reading all of your comments here (not just yours) and I'm wondering. Do you spend that much time in OS alone?

I use MacOS, Windows, and Linux each and every day interchangeably. What I do is I start my productivity application(s) and spend time in that. I see OS when I'm copying files or when I'm in shell doing shit. Even when in shell, with baboon on Windows it's more or less the same experience across.

Only thing I want in all of OS' that is only in MacOS is preview. That thing is damn awesome. Everything else is invisible to me.

[tornadoboy55]

You can install Gnome Sushi to have that in Linux.

[Keyframe]

Thanks for the tip! Now do Windows!!

[oridecon]

> whereas Microsoft lets me to do whatever I want with my computers and my software.

Not in my experience. My Windows 10 automation/unscrew-up script alone is like 5 kloc. And I bet 70% of that script could be replaced if I had real control of the system, like dropping a .config file in some folder instead of having to find hidden settings with nonsensical names deep down the regedit hole. Another example, you have to use some stupid hacks to make sure there are no Flash DLLs in your pc. No matter what you do they always come back in some security update.

[snuxoll]

> And I bet 70% of that script could be replaced if I had real control of the system, like dropping a .config file in some folder instead of having to find hidden settings with nonsensical names deep down the regedit hole.

You should see my ansible playbooks for our Windows Server systems, I don't mind PowerShell per-se but it takes a lot more effort to get anything done compared to my CentOS systems where I can template a config file and be done with it.

I really hope our vendors start supporting .Net Core soon, the SDK for our ECM software is the only reason we're still stuck on the full framework and having to manage a bunch of Windows VM's for our integration software...

[chadgeidel]

5000 lines for a fresh install? That's... a lot. Is that on github somewhere?

[oridecon]

It's based on several scripts from Github. A lot of lines are just regex and lists (apps, services, tasks) of things to disable or remove.

I recommend you do your own script by choosing what you want from each type of script. I would release my script if I was sure it wouldn't break random people's computers, because IT WILL. I'm also running Windows 10 enterprise because I want as little telemetry and things shoved up my ass as possible.

Some Windows updates can change registry keys or disable certain policies. I monitor the commit log of other repos to know what I need to update, but they don't always cover everything. Feels like a lot of work but it's actually not.

Here's how I structured it:

- admin.ps1

--- admin-config.ps1 (policies, tweaks)

--- disable-services.ps1

--- remove-flash.ps1

--- ...

- user.ps1 calls

--- user-config.ps1

--- disable-gamedrv.ps1

--- disable-services.ps1

--- ...

Because if you're using a regular user account (like you should) you need to run 3 things:

- admin.ps1 as admin

- user.ps1 as admin

- user.ps1 as your regular user

I gave up on using runAs or any of the things recommended on stackoverflow, something always go wrong so it's easier to do it this way.

For a fresh install, I recommend that the first thing you do is update everything and let Windows install the 200 apps you don't want. Run the 3 things like I mentioned, reboot, run it again, reboot.

https://github.com/cluberti/VDI/blob/master/ConfigAsVDI.ps1 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10/ https://github.com/dfkt/win10-unfuck https://gist.github.com/sven212/5febf372aaa6e4cc1fda71ad9637...

My installation is months old and it runs like new even after heavy usage, hardware changes, tons of apps and games installed/uninstalled (this kills Windows 7). Just be careful what you remove, don't ever install ccleaner or any shit. All you need is sysinternals tools.

I'm too lazy to proof-read/make this shorter, hope it helps somebody.

[chadgeidel]

Thank you for taking time to share this!

[thr0waway1239]

>> whereas Microsoft lets me to do whatever I want with my computers and my software

Whatever is left after bricking it, I suppose?

You do know that there were actual lawsuits against Microsoft over the Windows 10 auto upgrade right?

https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Against-Windows-10-Microsoft-...

Even assuming that issue was overblown, I distinctly remember that Catbert-style perma-nag message appearing on each login asking me to upgrade. Microsoft doesn't even deem its users worthy of a simple "Don't bother me again" close window.

Let us conservatively say about 10% of the 300 million people who supposedly got the Windows 10 update didn't actually want it. That's about 30 million folks who would disagree with this notion that Microsoft "lets me do whatever I want with my computers and my software".

[akulbe]

I'd been a hardcore Mac user since '04.

The best thing Microsoft and Dell have going for them in the laptop space... the 2016 MacBook Pro w/Touch Bar. It was a dud. The GPU issues were the final straw for me.

I thought that switching back to Windows would be a HUGE hassle. The Windows Subsystem for Linux took the pain out of it. That, and I no longer have to fight the we-don't-have-a-macOS-version of $APP issues.

If Apple doesn't care about their computers, why should their users? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[cloverich]

> the 2016 MacBook Pro w/Touch Bar. It was a dud.

I thought their sales report indicated it is their highest selling macbook to date?

[SippinLean]

My favorite thing about Windows is I can usually fix it in the Registry

My least favorite thing is I have to use the Registry to fix it