[aaron-lebo]

I find this fascinating and troubling.

From a hacker perspective it is incredible. On the other hand, this is all driven by a profoundly illiberal government that has no goals other than its own survival and that's supported by a lot of human misery, some might say slavery. I love using Apple products but it's hard to forget the conditions at places like Foxconn.

Both sides think they are outflanking the other - the West hopes this development will liberalize China and increase respect for IP and rule of law while the Chinese government intends to use this interaction, trade, and adoption of tech to increase their own power. It's a very risky game. It's easy to criticize the US government (and for obvious reasons - this is not a defense of US foreign policy) but Chinese hegemony might be far worse.

As techies how can we create places like this in other more open countries? Can this kind of development not be done locally or in Latin America countries?

Please understand this is not an attack on China, just some (I think) realistic concerns about their government.

[Nokinside]

>profoundly illiberal government that has no goals other than its own survival and that's supported by a lot of human misery,

This is common misconception. China is authoritarian country but it's not a totalitarian dictatorship. Chinese government actually has problems of controlling it's population and people are not afraid to show their displeasure with protest and riots when things are wrong.

Politically modern China is very much like United Kingdom before universal suffrage. Communist party (60 million members) is very much like the noble class in UK. This upper class is full aware that they can't rule with iron fist. They have to deliver better conditions for people and manage industrialization and urbanization or their days are numbered. They have also tied their existence to Chinese (= Han) unity and nationalism (dangerously so, Taiwan is existential question for the communist party).

Economically modern China is very much like UK during industrialization. People in China are more at the mercy of crony capitalism and smog than the government.

Hopefully China will go trough similar set of gradual reforms. Maybe communists end up in the Chinese House of Lords where communist party still has little power.

----

>it's hard to forget the conditions at places like Foxconn.

People in the developing world move to cities to escape malnutrition. They are not forced to work in Foxconn, they choose to work in Foxconn in exchange of enough nutrition. If you want to see bad conditions, visit rural China and India where people still suffer from malnutrition. Malnutrition in China has dropped dramatically, thanks for hose horrible factory jobs. India has it much worse.

[T-A]

Recommended reading: "The Perfect Dictatorship: China in the 21st Century" by Stein Ringen [1], who is not some alt-right nutwing hack but somebody who made a career out of dissecting societies and took on China fresh off South Korea. I hope I won't excessively spoil the experience by saying that he would not agree with your assessment.

[1] http://www.hkupress.org/Common/Reader/Products/ShowProduct.j...

[yore129]

> They are not forced to work in Foxconn, they choose to work in Foxconn in exchange of enough nutrition.

That's totally untrue. People who come from the country side can't change jobs like that, they need some kind of permit to change jobs and sometimes they are actually forced to work somewhere. The job market in China is clearly biased against the worker, there is no real freedom of work for a large amount of people in China. And you're not even talking about all the corruption going that make sure these people keep getting exploited and forced to work in these places.

> China is authoritarian country but it's not a totalitarian dictatorship

By all standards it is a dictatorship, with re-education camps, no freedom of speech, a secret police and summary executions. Just because they are capitalists doesn't change that. The fact is, in the west we don't care, provided we have our slaves that build cheap stuffs. We basically outsourced slavery and accepted it thanks to an effective PR and the corruption of our own governments. Things were different 10/15 years ago, back then, China had a different reputation.

[Nokinside]

>they need some kind of permit to change jobs and sometimes they are actually forced to work somewhere.

Your information is outdated. China is changing rapidly. Things that were true 20 years ago are not true anymore.

It used to be that people had to be part of a work unit. In return people received free housing and were assigned a job. This is not true anymore. People can move around the country relatively freely, they can pick their job and buy their house. On the other hand they may have to live in the street and or go on without a job.

Big companies like Foxconn provide housing etc. and may try to control their workers, but people can quit and leave. They even have strikes. Chinese workers still don't have right to organize, but sometimes collective bargaining is allowed at factory level.

Chinese government still restricts workforce moment into some areas to prevent formation of slums in the cities.

[aaron-lebo]

What about hukou?

In November 2005, Jiang Wenran, acting director of the China Institute at the University of Alberta, said that the hukou system was one of the most strictly enforced apartheid structures in modern world history.[56] He stated, 'Urban dwellers enjoy a range of social, economic and cultural benefits while peasants, the majority of the Chinese population, are treated as second-class citizens.'[56]

Kam Wing Chan (陳金永 Chén Jīnyǒng) and Buckingham's (2008) article, "Is China Abolishing the Hukou System?"[30] argues that previous reforms have not fundamentally changed the hukou system, but have only decentralized the powers of hukou to local governments. They conclude that the hukou system remains active and continues to contribute to China's rural and urban disparity.[31]

In March 2008, over 30 leading intellectuals wrote an open letter to the Government, asking for the "immediate abolition of the rural-urban dual hukou system." In 2008-09, web posted essays remarked the Hukou system as a "caste system" of China, and "China a great country of discrimination."[32] The system is currently only partially enforced, and it has been argued that the system will have to be further relaxed in order to increase availability of skilled workers to industries.[33]

I understand that there has been some reform, but it still exists.

[Nokinside]

Hukou style register is common in Asia. Japan and Taiwan have it too.

Like I said, Chinese government still want's to prevent uncontrolled rural-urban population transfers and formation of slums. Undocumented immigrants in United States are analogous problem (citizens versus immigrants).

But the system has been radically changed. If person can show that they have work or house after six months they can stay and get their children in school etc.

[iklos55]

Let me guess, you live in the US and think you live in a completely free democracy?

[aaron-lebo]

This is not an argument.

The OP took the time to write up some actual criticisms and you've waved that off with "you must be American". That's not fair criticism. You can be disenchanted with American democracy and still see Chinese authoritarianism as far worse.

Do you have any response to the OP or are you just going to wave them off?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China

Numerous human rights groups have publicized human rights issues in China that they consider the government to be mishandling, including: the death penalty (capital punishment), the one-child policy (which China had made exceptions for ethnic minorities prior to abolishing it in 2015), the political and legal status of Tibet, and neglect of freedom of the press in mainland China. Other areas of concern include the lack of legal recognition of human rights and the lack of an independent judiciary, rule of law, and due process. Further issues raised in regard to human rights include the severe lack of worker's rights (in particular the hukou system which restricts migrant labourers' freedom of movement), the absence of independent labour unions (which have since been changing[3]), and allegations of discrimination against rural workers and ethnic minorities, as well as the lack of religious freedom – rights groups have highlighted repression of the Christian,[4][5][6][7][8][9] Tibetan Buddhist, and Falun Gong religious groups. Some Chinese activist groups are trying to expand these freedoms, including Human Rights in China, Chinese Human Rights Defenders, and the China Human Rights Lawyers Concern Group. Chinese human rights attorneys who take on cases related to these issues, however, often face harassment, disbarment, and arrest.[10][11]

[iklos55]

You're absolutely right and I apologize for unnecessary ad hominem attacks.

[kitschshrine]

The Chinese communist party (CCP) tortured its own citizens for 40 years. Then it stopped beating them and then rented them out to foreign corporations for pennies on the dollar, for hard, back-breaking labor. Then the CCP members left China with billions and escaped.

You seem to have a warped sense of morality

[jpindar]

Backbreaking labor making electronics? Seriously?

[ThomPete]

exactly there are something like 13000 large riots in China a year.

[yadongwen]

No, you are not attacking, but you really do not understand. Let me ask you a question. If Apple is assembling the iPhones in India, do you think the work condition is much better than that of Foxconn? And do you know that Foxconn is a Taiwanese company? Yes the Chinese government has their goals. They are corrupted and they do not care much about people. But, it's great they can offer great jobs to farmers assembling iPhones. Even though the work condition is so bad according to your standard.

[aaron-lebo]

If Apple is assembling the iPhones in India, do you think the work condition is much better than that of Foxconn?

Probably not, but we can't really know this, and at least having a democratic government in theory provides some leverage. My argument is that paying incredibly low prices for technology has human costs and perhaps is not sustainable.

But, it's great they can offer great jobs to farmers assembling iPhones.

That's assuming farmers are happier on factory lines than they are working on their farms. Is there evidence to support this? Of course we can't and shouldn't keep China agrarian but Western consumerism is subsidizing some ugly stuff that wouldn't be possible without it.

China does not compete on an even playing field with many other countries because of poverty yes but also because its government is interested in development at all costs.

And yes, the West developed the same way but it doesn't mean it's ethical.

[RichardHeart]

How do you think the conditions would be without Foxconn? I don't think the West could get a better deal from China than they are already getting. If the Chinese got their act totally together, wouldn't your Iphone get a lot more expensive? I don't think the west really wants to liberalize its trading partners as much as you think they do.