[peteretep]

    > well connected people to whatever
    > they want and get away with no
    > consequences

    > It's true practically everywhere
    > in the world

With the occasional glaring exception (Jimmy Savile, for example) I simply don't believe that's true in most of Western Europe.

The press, the judiciary, the police, and the civil service are strong institutions. Reading up on "Plebgate" will give you a feel for the truly pedestrian nature of power abuse in the UK, and what happens when the police go rogue.

[Griffinsauce]

Don't underestimate how much you don't see. Millionaires fly without even seeing border security, meanwhile every other person spends hours waiting in line. It may not be beatings in the street but there are many laws that simply don't apply when you're rich enough.

[peteretep]

    > Millionaires fly without
    > even seeing border security

For clarity, you're saying that it's possible to arrive in -- for example -- the UK without being subject to immigration or border controls?

If you're merely pointing out that it's possible to receive much speedier service with money, then yes, there are a wealth of commercially available options operated by airports, private and public alike. That's hardly evidence of corruption.

[flukus]

You ever see the president get a pat down when he returns from over seas?

[smallnamespace]

I'm as much in favor of equal application of laws as anyone else, but please explain how wasting the President's time would help anyone else one iota?

[flukus]

This is an extreme example, but I do think that having lawmakers out through the same process as the plebs would lead to better laws.

[tominous]

Johnny Depp would disagree with you that the laws simply don't apply:

https://youtu.be/ORpBAIB9j64

[flukus]

Remember that this was only notable because the laws did apply.

[marklgr]

Organized crime have had a _tremendous_ influence in Europe, and most countries of the world, up to the very top of governments. In wartime, or when the government is in a weak position domestically, they don't hesitate to resort to the muscle of mafias, and of course this has long term consequences: once they have helped the "state", they have a free hand to do a lot of things -- a lot.

[peteretep]

Could you provide some contemporary examples in Scandinavian or Western Europe of where organized crime has had a blind eye turned to it as a result of using mafia-sponsored "muscle"?

[marklgr]

The muscle part is mostly historical, up to the '80s maybe. Now it's more about money eg. to fund campaigns. Cf. Berlusconi, Sarkozy.

Scandinavia is the poster child for ethics, and from what I know I would say rightly so, but it's not representative of Western Europe as a whole.

[peteretep]

I think I was incorrectly using Western Europe to mean Western Europe minus Southern Europe. I don't believe this happens in France, Germany, Holland, the U.K., etc

Your inclusion of Sarkozy surprises me. Googling for Sarkozy and mafia is bringing me a bunch of antisemitic sites and a site called info-resistance — do you have any reliable sources?

[marklgr]

Sarkozy is prosecuted for several charges regarding the funding of his electoral campaigns (who cost far more than what the law allows), and it is now extremely likely that Gaddafi is illegally involved. Prior to that, Chirac had strong ties with Charles Pasqua, whom he appointed Interior Minister -- Pasqua was clearly linked to the Corsican mafia and he later funded the infamous SAC -- muscle from the mafia to counter the OAS. As for Mitterand, he made it possible for Berlusconi to invest in France via Mediaset and "La Cinq", among others.

So there's a long history of shady ties at the very top of the French institution, pretty often in the form of what was deemed as a "necessary evil", but corruption nonetheless. That's pretty much summarizes the spirit of the French Fifth Republic, anyway: "we go to do what we got to do, and the public wouldn't understand".