[sigi45]

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns.

As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money.

There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave.

Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter.

And no we do not have anywhere in germany rent prices like in NY or in SF. Perhaps, only, if even in the middlest of the centere.

[vikascoder]

All great points. Just to put in the "con" perspective: 1. It's good money, not insanely great money for software engineering field. You can not hope to earn 200k USD as a senior engineer ever and hence even a few folks from Germany seem pretty keen to have a 4-5 year stint in the US to earn some quick bucks. (also the exchange rate nowadays is killing it for Euro). You can see the effect in terms of how much you percentage of your salary you pay as rent and from my personal experience it was a lot (close to 30-40% of your entire paycheck, some germans in not so blessed fields pay almost 50%). The social security aspects covers for it as far as you enjoy it. 2. Jobs are secure as soon as you sign a permanent contract and get over the "Probzeit" period and there are seldom any "at-will" employment contracts. The flipside? startup culture never really kicked off until recently, hiring is slow and firing is even slower(harder) leading to plenty of dead-beat employees hanging around in corner offices in some organizations. You have copy-cat IT companies like Rocket Internet whose sole business model is to copy ideas from the US and implement them in Europe. So the variety of jobs are definitely not more than what the US provides. 3. As a result, the general lifestyle is living "frugally". If you like that it's fantastic. But everything is comparatively "expensive" than the US apart from certain things like Beer. e.g. Branded clothes like Timberland, Levis etc are sold at a premium where you can get those for 40 bucks in an outlet mall in the US. So buy IKEA/H&M/C&A with your software salary.

You do have countries where salaries are high like Switzerland but you also have insanely high living costs.

[sremani]

>> university costs 150$ for 6 month.

This is not a German miracle, its simple demographics, most of the Germans are in their productive years of 40s and 50s and their population in teens and 20s is tiny, so their investments are low even though at per-capita level they look tremendous. This is the reason why Germany's hope is automation. They are demographically not in a great place. of course, this will come home to roost in 20 years or so.

[edit] Demographics link: http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/age_structure.html

[cylinder]

Or maybe they figured out that relying on population growth to drive the economy is a Ponzi scheme. Eventually you can't add more population so you have to reckon with aging one day, might as well solve the problem ASAP. Automation combined with exports allows you to grow your economy without adding humans.

If they still wanted to, they could turn on the migration spigot at anytime. Plenty of brilliant engineers and scientists to pick off out of Eastern Europe, Iran, etc. Labor has already come in on its own.

[ThePhysicist]

So far population in Germany keeps increasing, as it is one of the most popular countries for immigrants worldwide (and I'm not talking about refugees), so there's a large influx of people from within the European Union as well as from outside of it. Currently there are around 200.000 more deaths each year than births, which is still easy to compensate through immigration. Concerning the birth rate Germany is maybe a bit ahead of the curve, but the problem is similar in most Western countries, even the US. Recently birth rates have been increasing again by the way, so it's not clear if the historically low rates will prevail in the long run.

Also, the fact that education is free isn't really related to demographics, in fact University education has always been free, and the only attempt to introduce a (very moderate) tuition fee in 2006 was fully reversed a few years later due to pressure from various organizations.

[MrDosu]

Interesting trivia:

If you are from a foreign country and come to Germany to study in the universities, you also pay only that amount. There is a lot of diversity here nation wise in the universities. Education is considered a human right.

[dx034]

No, it's an economic decision. You pay for expensive university via higher costs for specialists. Healthcare is a good example. One reason that it's so expensive in the US is that the education is insanely expensive and doctors need to charge a certain amount to make sure it pays off. In Germany, nearly no one will have more than $10k debt after Uni, so the salary you need to earn as a lawyer or doctor is much lower. And as much of doctors' salary is paid by the state (directly or indirectly), it can be much cheaper to finance universities.

[sigi45]

Yeah but there is a counterargument: We don't need more young people because the bip (Gross domestic product) per person is increasing as well. Lets see what will happen :)

[runT1ME]

This is such a weird reply. If you are talking about where you'd rather live, then it makes sense to talk about all things given you like your choice.

However, that's not the discussion. Wouldn't it be more productive to say "how were american engineers able to get so well paid, and how can we emulate that in Europe?"

[cylinder]

I agree. People stop reducing your life to dollars (or €).

That said, I think the USD is propped up in ways that others are not due to its status in the world. They'd an advantage for some, certainly. And Euro is weakened by rest of EU, if Germany were standalone their currency would be higher than now.

[Shanea93]

As a European, I think of Europe as being similar to the United States: Each country is it's own state and part of a whole.

In my opinion, saying that if Germany were standalone they would have a stronger currency is the same as saying "If California were standalone they would have a stronger currency".

The US has its Mississippi, Europe has its Greece.

[NetStrikeForce]

If there was no Euro, Germany would have a much harder time selling their stuff to the rest of Europe that "it's weakening the Euro".

It's on purpose, part of the plan.

[pmcpinto]

I agree, in most part of Europe is possible to live better with less, compared with USA.

I think it's a bit insane that a lot of companies in USA doesn't allow parental leave, pressure employers to don't take any vacations, etc etc

[tehlike]

Devil's advocate: US economy, startups, and so on are stronger than that of Europe's.

[astrange]

Do we know which % of US states are doing better than Europe? I'm sure it's not all of them.

(I think we should measure virtue by carbon footprint/chance of horrible death/crime/etc and not by GDP.)

[Broken_Hippo]

That is really a weird blanket statement: Both places have their own weirdness.

You probably aren't going to do so well with a start-up in rural Mississippi or Indiana, mostly because folks don't have much money to spend on your wares, yet in some other areas it'll seem like they are doing well. Same thing with Europe. There are a lot of countries and economies and different regulations there and it is quite hard to compare with the overall thing.

[tehlike]

eh that's true for any country on its own. Each country has both developed & tech savy areas and less/savy areas.

[charlesdm]

You're right. But why not make use of the best of both worlds? If you can work remotely and make $100-150k a year working from Germany or France, then you get the benefits of living in Europe but with an equivalent US salary.

I know several developers who have tripled or quadrupled their after tax income, without having to work any harder.

[walshemj]

But how does this compare to other professions say a lawyer or a medical doctor with the same experience.

I suspect in Europe and the UK in particular engineering is seen as a lower status profession - may be less so in Germany

[Cephlin]

In the UK when I tell people I'm a programmer, software engineer, web developer, systems engineer or whatever role I've had at the time, they usually ask me to fix their Windows machine... I guess that's the level of respect we get here.

[steevenwee]

In my experience that's not specific to the UK.

[rev_bird]

...can I come over?

[tomcam]

> There are no killings in cities

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36882445

[NetStrikeForce]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/01/us/chicago-murders-2016/

This is what they are talking about; not terrorist attacks which are sporadic.

[234dd57d2c8dba]

You act like everyone in the USA has to wear body armor, has to set broken bones themselves and lives in tent cities.

I have amazing dental, health, and eyecare. Free routine health checkups such as physicals, heck I even get a free gym membership. I drive a 350HP luxury sedan. Oh and I've never shot anyone, had to shoot anyone, or been the victim of a crime other than petty theft where my car was broken into one time. But I do have the freedom to participate in shooting sports (and I do) whenever the heck I want and I don't need to ask mommy for permission.

If that's not high quality living standards, you must make 500k a year and be rich because I don't know what is. I think your media has drastically altered your perception of what America is and is not. Tech workers are well compensated and I'd rather be making six figures in America. I'm sure your country is very nice as well, but there is not enough freedom.

[cr1895]

>I think your media has drastically altered your perception of what America is and is not.

You're doing well for yourself, but aren't you also presenting an altered perception of America? Very, very few people in America are as fortunate as you.

[NetStrikeForce]

> I have amazing dental, health, and eyecare.

I do have it too, albeit the only one I pay for is the dental one - but more importantly, the barista at my favourite coffee shop has them too. At the same quality level.

> Free routine health checkups such as physicals,

My doctor calls me to get those done. They chase me! for free! but more importantly, they also chase the barista guy :)

> heck I even get a free gym membership.

Incidentally I do. I don't think the barista does. Gym fees are between £10 and £30 around here. Of course you an always splash out for David Lloyd's and pay 12x that...

> I drive a 350HP luxury sedan.

I either cycle 10 minutes or take a bus for 15 minutes. Why would I need a 350HP luxury sedan? I am already wasting money having a 170BHP Alfa Romeo hatchback parked in front of my house 24x7.

> Oh and I've never shot anyone, had to shoot anyone, or been the victim of a crime other than petty theft where my car was broken into one time.

Same here. Even better, I don't even think about it. Even better, as anyone is allowed to free healthcare there is less desperate people.

> But I do have the freedom to participate in shooting sports (and I do) whenever the heck I want

You can play shooting sports. My uncle does it regularly. Part of my family are actually hunters.

> and I don't need to ask mommy for permission.

Please, don't be disrespectful.

> If that's not high quality living standards, you must make 500k a year and be rich because I don't know what is.

Those are everyone's quality standards in great part of Europe. You are missing the point.

> I think your media has drastically altered your perception of what America is and is not.

Oh, our media - and I thought we all read TechCrunch, Gizmodo, CNN, BBC, ...

Luckily we have you to open your eyes. THANK GOD.

> Tech workers are well compensated and I'd rather be making six figures in America.

Good for you, but I am making six figures in Europe. Anecdotal data is anecdotal.

But even better, the guy not making six figures has free healthcare too.

> I'm sure your country is very nice as well, but there is not enough freedom.

I guess your freedom to play shooting sports (which you can in Europe too) is more important that your freedom to get free or affordable healthcare should you be in a rough spot.

You are privileged, I am privileged. However, I might not be who I am without free healthcare, cheap public nurseries, free quality schools, almost free universities, ... All paid by taxes of those who can, for those who can't. Remember you can be in one of those groups today and in the other tomorrow.

[234dd57d2c8dba]

I think you took a negative tone to my post when it was not meant that way. A number of the things you pointed out are just facts of living in America vs Europe. I have to drive a car because everything is spread out. European cities were built over many centuries before cars were a thing.

I think it's safe to say tech workers are well compensated in both places, which was my point. The OP was acting very arrogant as if American tech workers didn't have healthcare, vacations, etc.

> You can play shooting sports. My uncle does it regularly. Part of my family are actually hunters.

I think you're deluding yourself. No offense, but I don't need to justify my gun ownership through the guise of "hunting" like you do in Germany or other European countries. I don't shoot animals, only paper and steel. I like guns so I own them. Also you would be outmatched in gun competitions such as 3 gun races simply because you are not allowed to purchase modern firearms like AR15s. You will just tire out faster than the guy carrying a 5LB AR15.

> You are privileged, I am privileged. However, I might not be who I am without free healthcare, cheap public nurseries, free quality schools, almost free universities, ... All paid by taxes of those who can, for those who can't. Remember you can be in one of those groups today and in the other tomorrow.

Agreed. Let's see how well your system copes with the refugee crisis. I'm eager to see if "those who can" can really feed the mouths of all the refugees. A number of important litmus tests for our modern society are taking place in Europe as we speak. A positive outcome might tip the scales here in America.

[NetStrikeForce]

> I think you took a negative tone to my post when it was not meant that way. A number of the things you pointed out are just facts of living in America vs Europe. I have to drive a car because everything is spread out. European cities were built over many centuries before cars were a thing.

Well, I do think the potential salary difference is not worth it; and the reasons are what I've stated in my reply.

> I think it's safe to say tech workers are well compensated in both places, which was my point.

They are, agreed.

> The OP was acting very arrogant as if American tech workers didn't have healthcare, vacations, etc.

Well, they rarely have healthcare at the same level you can get in Canada, Spain, UK, etc - which is given to any worker in those countries. That is my point :)

They rarely have paid vacation, too.

> I think you're deluding yourself. No offense, but I don't need to justify my gun ownership through the guise of "hunting" like you do in Germany or other European countries. I don't shoot animals, only paper and steel. I like guns so I own them. Also you would be outmatched in gun competitions such as 3 gun races simply because you are not allowed to purchase modern firearms like AR15s. You will just tire out faster than the guy carrying a 5LB AR15.

You play gun sports, I told you can play gun sports in Europe too. It's a thing - not just "hunting" (seriously?:)). Good for you if you like to shoot AR15s.

> Agreed. Let's see how well your system copes with the refugee crisis.

Funnily enough, the US is not part of the refugee crisis yet your government is freaking out more than anyone. Food for thought.

> I'm eager to see if "those who can" can really feed the mouths of all the refugees.

It is possible. It has been proven in Germany of all places.

Funnily enough, the US used to be the receiver of refugees. Germans, Italians, Irish, Polish, Hungarians, Cubans, ... And it worked well.

> A number of important litmus tests for our modern society are taking place in Europe as we speak. A positive outcome might tip the scales here in America.

And we will prevail.

[Cephlin]

You start by saying:

> I think you took a negative tone to my post when it was not meant that way.

Then go onto say:

> I think you're deluding yourself. No offense, but

Sounds like the negative tone is continuing.

On another note:

> I'm sure your country is very nice as well, but there is not enough freedom.

What exactly are Americans free to do which we cannot in the UK?

The American dream seems to be more viable in Europe where the difference in pay between the top and the bottom is less severe and social mobility is higher.

[MulliMulli]

This is turning into a pissing contest.

[whorleater]

Every $COUNTRY v $COUNTRY or $CITY v $CITY turns into a pissing contest because no one wants to admit they made the wrong choice in settling down somewhere, and end up presenting the best of their place and burying the worst.

[Cephlin]

"But my city has a better system for burying the worst than yours!"

[sigi45]

You know my main point was, that it doesn't matter at all for me to go to usa to work there only because the figures are 'higher'.

You counter argued nearly every point but not about my 30 days holiday every year and the overhours. Why?

[ionised]

Freedom to do what?

[SmokyBourbon]

It's worth pointing out that, while health care in Germany is better than most of Europe, it is well below the standards Americans are accustomed to. Americans have a much higher survival rate for cancer and other serious diseases due to advanced diagnostic procedures and higher pay for physicians. Americans are comfortable asking doctors for more tests and services when the doctor doesn't think its necessary because the patient and their employer pay the doctor's salary. This leads to waste and higher costs but also allows for earlier detection of serious diseases and for better treatment.

If you're young, healthy, and your family doesn't have a history of cancer or heart disease, Germany's health care system might be a good deal. It's one of the best in Europe and, like the United States, people travel from all over the world to receive treatment there.

But you will want to move back to the United States when you get older. Per capita Germany performs about half as many MRIs, CT scans, c-sections, coronary bypasses, or knee replacements as the U.S. And, if you're over 65, you have very little value to the public system. Doctors will merely manage your pain rather than work to extend your life regardless of your age like they do in the U.S.

Germany has a good health system and Germans enjoy a life expectancy comparable to Americans but it's a system designed to please the young, healthy taxpayer. For me, a few extra vacation days and some beer in my youth aren't worth getting surprised by late-stage cancer or suffering with a bad knee when I get old.

Side note: More Americans need to know about Long-term Care Insurance. It's super cheap if you buy it when you're younger (50's) and it'll save your family a fortune when you get old.

[Broken_Hippo]

Actually, I think you have this mixed up. I'm in Norway, and I never again want to fall victim of the US health care.

You actually have to afford the operation for cancer for them to give it to you - up until it becomes and emergency, anyway (this actually happened to someone with cervical cancer I knew). If you are lucky you can beg around and get it. It doesn't always matter that you have insurance, as a lot of folks can't afford it.

My father had trouble affording insulin and at one point stupidly cut back, which was after he gave up anti-depressants and my mother wasn't seeing the doctor for other things.

If you don't have money, the american system is cruel. I'd much rather deal with the waiting times than to suffer due to lack of money. At least there is hope, and I no longer fear getting sick and winding up homeless because of it.

[cinemaisdope]

Would you mind putting sources for these claims? There exist many contradictory claims [1].

1) https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/cancer-spen...

[NetStrikeForce]

Op's numbers are probably for those who can afford the treatment.

Heck, if even getting checked up might be a big spending for low earners I wonder how many people die without being correctly diagnosed.

[MulliMulli]

I lived in the US until 2014 and moved back to Germany after that - from my personal experience and those of friends and colleagues it is quite the opposite of what you are saying.

[cr1895]

>Per capita Germany performs about half as many MRIs, CT scans, c-sections, coronary bypasses, or knee replacements as the U.S. And, if you're over 65, you have very little value to the public system. Doctors will merely manage your pain rather than work to extend your life regardless of your age like they do in the U.S.

Some thoughts I don't necessarily have answers to:

- is the lower occurrence of these procedures due to a lower need? Maybe wider-spread healthcare throughout life means overall people are healthier and need less procedures later on in life. Maybe these procedures are over-performed in the US and not necessarily under-performed in Germany (patients like having tests done and receiving medication, doctors/labs happy to do so because it is profitable, etc; for example, nowhere in Europe will you see "ask your doctor about XYZ drug!" advertising and antibiotics are much less commonly prescribed).

- there may indeed be a cultural/philosophical difference in approach to end-of-life care. Is it right that life should be extended at any cost in the US? Is this something that's available to someone who is poor and has basic or no insurance, or is it only available to someone wealthy or with an exceptionally strong insurance plan?

[dx034]

The healthcare is that good in many European countries. Netherlands, Norway, France, UK (NHS has an awful reputation but is actually quite good) are just some examples. It's rather rare to find a European country with expensive or inadequate healthcare.

[DanBC]

The UK's NHS is in a bad situation because it's been underfunded for many years by all parties.

A lot of the current pressure is a combination of that chronic underfunding and the chronic underfunding of social care. We don't need more beds, we need better social care to allow us to use the beds we have more efficiently. (Except we do need more beds. In the last six years there's been a reduction of 1 in 16 acute beds and 1 in 5 MH beds).

It's a weird situation because UK gov spends less per capita on health care than the US gov. If we increased spending on certain things - social care; early intervention MH services; better drug and alcohol services - we'd save so much money.

[synicalx]

> There are no killings in cities

I mean yeah if you ignore all the people shooting up malls, attacking people with machetes, driving trucks into crowds etc, Germany's a really peaceful place.

[luan42]

That is just not true. Look at the numbers, and not on your feeling you get from the news. For I stance start with the number of bullets fired by police!

[synicalx]

The statement was "There are no killings in cities", which is clearly not true - there ARE killings in cities. There are probably less overall than in America, but I really don't care enough to check.

[aplummer]

"Probably"! The gun death rate is just over 10x higher in the US per capita (10/100000) v (1/100000), it's a massive difference.

[synicalx]

Ok? Cool?

If you can be bothered to go back and re-read my last comment, you'll notice I never once mentioned guns or even expressed a passing interest in comparing gun death rates.

[cr1895]

You literally said, "if you ignore people shooting up malls" in the context of Germany being peaceful.

[sigi45]

Yeah it is.

Why the heck do i have to read such stupid comment @hn? Do you really mean this or did you just use it as a troll counter argument?