[Simaramis]

Isn't it true that Ukraine has never been an independent state except since the fall of the USSR? In its history? Except for 2 weeks after WWII? It has always been a fertile land, agrarian, impossible to defend due to no natural boundaries, its people of fiercely independent mind, yet, having been rolled over by Poles, Russians, Vikings, Norsman repeatedly and periodically throughout history? That would be the context. I would even go as far as saying that Donbass and Crimea are not to be counted as Ukraine, historically?

[steevenwee]

Most of your claims are false. And for argument sake if they were true, let's face it: Ukraine not only was independent since 1991, but it's territory integrity was guaranteed by Russia and USA.

[Simaramis]

I would only request that it should be viewed in context of its history. Especially if we might decide to enshrine the world in more war over it. It is in its current state a construct, without a foundation. To reach peace, a compromise must be reached.

[steevenwee]

'I would only request that it should be viewed in context of its history.' THE context of its history is that Ukraine was independent longer than the USA exists. And even despite that fact, the post-soviet era requires borders to be intact in order to reach peace. If we'll let this go, that would mean that it is 'ok' to invade countries and we would fall down back into world wars times. *And by invading countries, I mean grabbing someone's else land and declaring it your own.

[Simaramis]

It's mostly a question. How can you declare a question false?

[steevenwee]

ok, let me show you an example of a false question: Isn't it true that the USA is a dictatorship?

[valuearb]

It's an independent state now. Should the U.S. be rolled over by Russia, given that it's only existed for a couple hundred years?

[Simaramis]

The U.S. had to emancipate from a perceived oppressor by forging alliances, engage in deception, and by defeating the enemy. In the end, that's what it all boils down to. Raising the specter of a giant guilt-trip wasn't gonna work for U.S.

[svachalek]

So, it's not aggression if everyone else does it?

[Simaramis]

the world is based on aggression, unfortunately. To just pretend this is not so only makes things worse. A prognosis must include a proper diagnosis. Currently all that's being done by either side is using it as a ping-pong ball, that's how it has been for recent history (1.5 millenia?). Declaring Ukraine a state seems not much more than a paper-tiger. Nothing of what I said or say is meant to justify aggression or bloodshed.