[watwut]

The loop and map are equally readable, it is just that some people are used to one form more then the other.

More importantly, how many character needs to be used for simple idiom like that has zero influence on how maintainable your system is going to be few months later on, how fast it is and so on. The difference between loop and map wont make you do less or more bugs. It may make you read the code few seconds longer first time you encounter form you are less used to - but then you will adjust and read it just fine.

[lewisl9029]

Functions are trivially composable, while imperative loops are not. The difference that makes in terms of maintainability and readability of non-trivial applications is hard to overstate.

Writing code in terms of small, composable, reusable functions with a clear single intent (through good naming), that you can then mix, match, and reuse to compose into larger functions is what makes good functional code so much easier to write, test, and reason about than imperative code.

My favorite intro to functional programming concepts for those used to imperative coding is Sott Sauyet's Functional Programming presentation: http://scott.sauyet.com/Javascript/Talk/FunctionalProgrammin...

The presentation makes heavy use of JavaScript and the RamdaJS library in its examples, but the concepts are universally applicable to any language with the necessary functional programming primitives. It also does a great job of comparing imperative and OO implementations of a solution to a problem vs the functional implementation. I highly recommend taking a look if you're even slightly interested in why so many people are starting join the functional programming bandwagon.

So what I'm trying to say is, it's not just a matter of readability. Although if anyone still wants to argue that imperative looping is anywhere close in readability compared to functional composition for non-trivial cases (think multi-level nested loops vs composing multiple functions), then we should just agree to disagree since I don't foresee that becoming a productive discussion.

[watwut]

"Writing code in terms of small, composable, reusable functions with a clear single intent (through good naming), that you can then mix, match, and reuse to compose into larger functions is what makes good functional code so much easier to write, test, and reason about than imperative code."

Absolute, that holds for non functional code as well.

It just does not matter whether the smallest function inside that system of functions has a loop or a map inside it. Loops are as easy to tuck into reusable functions as maps or anything else. Notably examples in the presentation you link have functional version shorter, but harder to read - they have more features however. Even the first one pipe(..., reduce(add, 0)) just does not read fluently.

But again, this low level has very little influence on maintainability of the larger program. In anything that is not computational library, how you compose them matters more. It is as if you assumed code with loops can not be split into smaller composable units.

I worked with codebase written in largely functional style. It was hard to read at first, but then I got used to it. However, it never became all that much easier to read them loops nor easier to work with. It gets bad when people get clever with composing functions.

[lewisl9029]

> It just does not matter whether the smallest function inside that system of functions has a loop or a map inside it. Loops are as easy to tuck into reusable functions as maps or anything else.

This is certainly true! You can definitely wrap all your loops in functions that take in a collection as argument, and return another collection or value, and as long as you don't produce any externally observable side effects with your loops, these functions are as good as any other as building blocks of a functional program.

Consider the age old adage: "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it actually fall?", similarly, "If a function mutates some internal state only visible within its own scope (a counter or accumulator in an imperative loop, for instance), did it actually mutate anything?" The practical functional programmer would answer with a resounding "no". In fact, RamdaJS itself is implemented mostly imperatively internally for performance/compatibility reasons, but exposes a functional API for the consumer. Similarly, Clojure is implemented the same way for many of its core functions, and exposes an easy way for users to perform mutations for similar purposes within the functional, immutable-by-default language using transients: https://clojure.org/reference/transients

If you use imperative loops by wrapping them in this way, however, note that you're essentially implementing the same function signature of a function that calls map/filter/reduce on a collection, but with imperative primitives, and that's definitely a valid approach. If you build your programs by writing and composing these kinds of functions, you are in fact doing functional programming, and can reap all the composability, maintainability, and testability benefits that come with it.

I don't think there's any room to debate that most developers don't use imperative loops in this way, however. And my point was that the way they're usually used was not trivially composable. Of course, you could always refactor them into small functions that are trivially composable, but that they need to be to become composable is why I prefer using trivially composable primitives like map/reduce/filter to implement my programs as a default, and optimize specific functions with imperative implementations on an as-needed basis after profiling and identifying all the critical paths (premature optimization, and whatnot).

RE: `var sumOfSquares = pipe(map(square), reduce(add, 0));` not reading fluently.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. To me that reads quite literally as "given a collection, return the square of each item, and add the result of each to the next, starting from 0, to return the final value". The functional approach could definitely look more intimidating to readers without any general knowledge of functional primitives and what they do, but that's an issue of familiarity, rather than one of inherent readability.

Yes, people can get crazy with nesting multiple inline composed functions inside of other inline composed functions on one insanely long line, and that can quickly get out of hand in terms of maintainability and readability, just as people can get crazy with nesting loops. But that's just a case of bad functional code that needs to be refactored using a composition of smaller, well-named functions broken down into multiple lines. Nobody is claiming functional programming is a panacea for bad code.

[solidsnack9000]

It is not necessarily easy to recognize when a loop is a map or filter -- I think that's the issue. It's why someone like McSweeney would bring it up.

The Python approach -- where maps and loops share a lot of syntax -- is maybe the middle way. On the one hand, it's not an approach that gives rise to `.map()`, `.collect()`, `.flat_map()` and so forth; on the other, it's marked out as something returning a result.