[kakarot]

Qubes does not use Whonix for anything. Whonix can use Qubes, though.

Qubes and Whonix are fundamentally different. They attempt to solve two different issues.

Whonix solves privacy via obfuscation, Qubes solves security through virtualization / compartmentalization and specifically does not believe in security by obfuscation. You do not have to choose between the two if you run Whonix inside of Qubes, but I have a feeling most users who think they want privacy really want security, and it would be a hassle to constantly use Whonix.

I highly recommend Qubes, if you aren't already using it. It isn't for the faint of heart, however, and there are a long list of bugs to squash and features to add. Things are coming along nicely though, and this year they plan to test-drive corporate support for Qubes OS as a business platform, which if successful should give them quite a bit of capital for expansion and auditing of essential code.

[sp0rk]

> Qubes does not use Whonix for anything. Whonix can use Qubes, though.

Qubes comes with Whonix gateway and workstation templates preloaded. How is that not "using Whonix"?

[kakarot]

Important distinction in terminology. Qubes _runs_ Whonix, Whonix can _use_ Qubes as a host. And the Whonix workstation is an optional addition that a lot of users find no need for. It does not come preloaded, you must enable it during installation. But Qubes does not use Whonix anymore than Windows uses Firefox when you run the firefox process.

In software, when you say something "uses" something, you are implying it uses it as a backend or API. But Qubes does not communicate with nor expose any information to Whonix, and especially does not utilize it for any sort of functionality.

[tingletech]

sounds like a distinction without a significant difference. "To improve your privacy and anonymity on the internet, you can install the Whonix Template on your Qubes machine." https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/whonix/ to me that makes it sound like the quebes-os people use whonix to improve privacy

[kakarot]

Why do you think an operator of a computer is called a user?

I use Qubes and do not use Whonix, and most users don't either. Qubes is security-focused, offering increased privacy in the process, but Whonix is for the privacy-focused and has separate use-cases. I'm not a journalist in some 3rd world dictatorship so using Whonix would just degrade my user experience.

But that's the thing. As users, we can use a piece of software, but our operating system is not using anything. And it is erroneous and misguiding to say that Qubes OS "uses" Whonix, because again, that implies special meaning, such as using it as a backend for main internet access. This isn't some trivial distinction. It is a very basic, important distinction when you are talking about software.

[sp0rk]

You may not personally launch Xfce Terminal either but it doesn't mean Qubes doesn't use it as a terminal emulator. Qubes uses Whonix for anonymous VMs. It's bizarre that you're so set on making this distinction that not even the creators attempt to make.

[kakarot]

Oh? Can you provide context where they say that Qubes uses Whonix? Under their doc file for Whonix they just mention that, if you want to use Tor, Qubes can make use of Whonix as a ProxyVM. That is the correct usage of the term "use". But not only is that not the same thing as using Whonix for a general backend for operation, many users forgo installing Whonix altogether.

This whole thing devolved from me just trying to make a distinction for other HN users so that they wouldn't get the wrong idea and not try out Qubes because they might think the systems are coupled and are worried of, say, being hacked by the FBI and put on more lists for using Tor.