[threeseed]

No it's not that good for software developers or anyone really.

Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. And so all that is going to happen is that companies are going to shift entire projects offshore or simply not take on as many projects.

There does need to be reform. But frankly given the chaotic manner in which the Trump administration is crafting and implementing policy I don't think their approach to reform will be nuanced enough.

[0xfeba]

> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent.

I can only speak to my experience. At my current employer we have about 60-70% H1Bs in my department (development). Even more in QA. And they aren't particularly talented. After reviewing the public information though, they are getting paid 50% of what I am.

So they are living with multiple other visa workers in one apartment, can barely afford repairs to their old cars, etc.

It'd be great if the wages were more equalized. It's really not about talent at anywhere but the big 4. It's about money.

[mavelikara]

I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.

[User23]

The inclination for people to hire those who remind them of themselves is well documented which means if you're not doing it to save money then you're doing it to favor your tribe.

[mavelikara]

I hire both people on H-1B visas and those who are not. All I was saying that the immigration status does not positively or negatively affects a candidate's job application, where I work.

[0xfeba]

Well, yes. I mean at the Big 4 (and really, this applies to any large, cutting-edge company: Twitter, Oracle, etc.) they do reach out of the US to find great talent for higher up positions. But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions.

Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers. I figure these are the majority.

[serge2k]

> But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions.

The numbers are public on this and look fine. People keep telling you "I'm on an H-1B and I'm paid reasonably".

Please, offer actual proof or quit spreading this around.

[0xfeba]

People who are in startups and other unicorns are telling me this, sure.

But lots of established SW companies use contracting companies that abuse the visa process. I should have been more clear, it's these contracting companies (usually based out of India) that are abusing the process. US companies that use them are pretty much complicit:

http://www.vocativ.com/money/business/theyll-sponsor-america...

http://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/h1b/proof-that-h-1b...

http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Chasing-dreams-a...

http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pro...

[Clubber]

I remember a fairly recent story about Disney laying off a bunch of IT folks.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2915904/it-outsourcing/...

[mavelikara]

> But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions.

No, in lower-level positions also they are paid the same as their colleagues who are citizens. During the hiring process, the immigration status is not get considered as a positive or negative qualifier.

> Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers.

I agree.

> I figure these are the majority.

This is possible, but I am not sure. It is true that many companies who get the most visas don't pay well. But the well-paying firms do not apply for lots of visas, and there are lots of them, leading to a long thin-tailed distribution. Also, many of these H-1B immigrants, once they get their green cards, go on to found successful startups increasing the size of the economic pie for everyone. One such person, Jyoti Bansal, sold his startup for $3.7B last week.

[0xfeba]

> No, in lower-level positions also they are paid the same as their colleagues who are citizens. During the hiring process, the immigration status is not get considered as a positive or negative qualifier.

Not if they are hired through a contracting company:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13525766

[MarkMc]

> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get local talent

So it's not just a way to get regular software developers at a cheap price? OK let's raise the minimum salary requirement for H1B visas to $120k.

[angry_octet]

In France its quite straight forward to get a skilled worker visa -- just earn more than 3100 Euros per month (~1.5 * average earnings in France). Shouldn't be a problem for tech workers.

(They are also introducing a 'tech startup visa' in the near future.)

[flukus]

1.5 * average earnings would still be below market for software developers.

[angry_octet]

True. There has been a significant increase in outsourcing in France in the last 5 years, but I don't know that it involves labour from lower wage countries. Obviously few Indians speak French, but there are many call centres outsourced to Senegal and other former French colonies. I think it is only a matter of time before ICT jobs migrate as well.

[vthallam]

Sure. A higher pay base sounds good, but how do you set the price to the location? 120K in SFO != 120K in Dallas(No state tax).

[thomasahle]

Or maybe something around the average software engineer pay scale of $80,000? What about student interns?

[kilotaras]

Student interns are not on H1B. It's J1 I believe.

[Eyas]

Exchange interns are J1, student interns in the US use their current F1 Visa with a CPT (Curricular Practical Training) permit for summer internship, or sometimes an OPT (Optional Practical Training) permit.

[dingdongding]

Student interns stay on whatever student visa they were on.

[DougBTX]

> simply can't get enough local talent

These things always need to be suffixed with "at price point x".

[threeseed]

Sure. It's a nuanced discussion. It's not just about price. It's also about the various experience within the local talent pool. I still remember at Apple looking for WebObjects developers, finding none locally but dozens at Infosys. What exactly are companies supposed to do ?

And companies like Infosys are often playing in specific, less sexy spaces i.e. enterprise J2EE, DBAs, System Administration etc whilst newer generation of developers prefer Go, Rust, Javascript etc.

[cousin_it]

> I still remember at Apple looking for WebObjects developers, finding none locally but dozens at Infosys. What exactly are companies supposed to do?

Hire and teach, thus benefitting everyone.

[imron]

> What exactly are companies supposed to do ?

Train their staff?

How long really would it take a competent Java developer to get up to speed with WebObjects?

[jack9]

> Sure. It's a nuanced discussion.

Nope.

> It's not just about price. It's also about the various experience within the local talent pool.

Same thing. H1B just made them that way, with both metrics being in favor of the employer (except the vast majority of times the skillset is misrepresented).

The astroturfing by someone who has no experience with how H1B is used, is telling.

[Shivetya]

I keep hearing this but personally have seen people passed over for H1B candidates when both were equally qualified. Even seen a few senior developer positions filled this way and in every case it was money.

It feels good to tell ourselves we didn't hire locally because there wasn't enough talent when in many cases its just far easier to accept a recruiters suggestions where multiple recruiters simply undercut each other.

[ConfuciusSay02]

>Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent

This is the scam they want you to believe, but it's being abused to simply keep wages low.

It's very easy to post fake job ads to make it seem like "you can't find someone" for the job, and there are plenty of lawyers who will help you get around those loopholes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU