[_andromeda_]

First of all, anyone can learn about anything now. Everything is everywhere now so you cannot lie to anyone about what America is like or what it isn't like. I suggest you forfeit that line of argument.

Secondly, riddle me this; do more immigrants vote for the party that promises more government welfare or less government welfare? I don't even know where you're going with this.

Finally, no one believes that resources aren't finite and as such it isn't a zero-sum game more than I do. However, when you have speak of how the wealthy/corporations should pay more taxes and those taxes should go to fund more welfare...clearly that's a mindset that says things are scarce and that it is a zero-sum game. One party says expropriate from producers to fund welfare the other says reduce regulation and taxes to incentivise more production. One has a producer mindset, the other has a consumer mindset.

[matt4077]

– Steve Jobs was the son of Syrian immigrants

– Segej Brin's parents were also immigrants

– Most immigrants don't vote at all, because immigration does not imply citizenship

- (this argument intentionally left blank to make dang's life easier)

– Most naturalised citizen vote democratic, yes. Jews also voted for Hillary (74%:26% according to https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/11/14/examining-the-jewish-v...). So did Harvard grads. Are those two groups also lazy "people with a consumer mindset"?

[_andromeda_]

>Most naturalised citizen vote democratic

Doesn't that mean something to you? It is no wonder many democrats want even more immigrants. Look at a state such as California...

27% of California's population was foreign born, about twice the US percentage.

Don't you think these politicians are aware of this and it is undoubtedly the reason they want even more immigrants? It has nothing to do with caring for other humans for them. It is all about increasing the number of democrats as much as possible irregardless of whether it is good for the country or not. Don't let them take you for a ride.

>Steve Jobs was the son of Syrian immigrants

These occurrences will be there from time to time but look at how and when these immigrants came to America.

There was a time when it was much harder to come to America and that meant that only the best people went to America. Not just everyone and anyone. The DV lottery program was the beginning of the end for the right kind of immigration to America.

When I look at the caliber of people that actually made it to America from my country before this was introduced, man, they were smart, hardworking and any country losing them to America felt the pinch. Now, the DV program has been sending just about anyone regardless of whether they were adding value to America. It is an indicator that it is on longer understood that even though immigration is good, it is only as good as the caliber of people you let in.

Who should be let in you ask? Those seeking education, expatriates, entrepreneurs, scientists etc. Not everyone.

[danso]

> There was a time when it was much harder to come to America and that meant that only the best people went to America. Not just everyone and anyone. The DV lottery program was the beginning of the end for the right kind of immigration to America.

The diversity visa lottery program requires that you have a high school diploma and come from a country that has sent very small numbers of people to America. And the DV lottery includes only 50,000 winners. Are you aware of how large America's population is, and how small 50,000 people is relative to the U.S. and to the size of normal annual immigration?

Yes, the point of the diversity visa is to add diversity to the immigrant pool, so that it isn't totally dominated by Asia and Latin America, because the U.S. has had historical success with diversity.

[_andromeda_]

>Are you aware of how large America's population is, and how small 50,000 people is relative to the U.S. and to the size of normal annual immigration?

That is not the point. I'm simply stating that lately America has been less strict with the caliber of immigrants allowed in and the DV program best exemplifies it.

[danso]

Yes, it is the point. You're claiming that America's DV program is emblematic of how standards have fallen, as if there were a golden age in American immigration. You talk about how America was built by intelligent hard-working immigrants. Yes, it was, but those immigrants wouldn't have been let in with your mentality. How many of the millions of Italian and Irish immigrants during the late 19th century were college graduates? My understanding is that most of them arrived on American shores as extremely poor. Same with the Chinese during that time. Since you aren't American, maybe you weren't aware that one of America's golden ages was in the 1940s and 1950s, and those late 19th century immigrants would have played a large part in that.

Similarly, war refugees from the 1970s through the 1980s were not particularly high "caliber", and certainly not self-sufficient enough to survive without hundreds of millions in American government aid, nevermind the generosity of American families and churches in providing sponsorship.

Again, you're not from America, so maybe it's hard to understand that America is lucky enough to have the resources and geographical placement so that immigration can be a net benefit rather than a zero-sum drag on society. You seem to think that there is no regulation of immigration at all, when in fact, it has been the subject of several laws that specify the annual composition and allowance, and these are things based on the study of history and economic realities. And also, observations that American families are happier when they've been reunited, which is why family-based visas are a large part of the annual allocation [0]

[0] https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/family/f...

[danso]

I suggest you understand that just because "anyone can learn about anything now" doesn't mean that you yourself have fulfilled that promise. For example, you seem to misunderstand the notion of welfare. The mindset behind it is not zero-sum, it's quite the opposite. The hope and expectation is that those who need welfare get the helping hand they need to establish themselves. Again, I can speak from personal experience growing up with food stamps, and now living and working in Silicon Valley.