[vinceguidry]

I hate this excuse. It seems like every lazy habit of programmers gets pushed onto the "business folks".

Just because business folks don't know how to value certain developer practices doesn't let you off the hook. Just do what you have to do and if it takes longer because you had to learn how to do it, then it takes longer.

Let the business folks tell you when it's taking too long to deliver features.

[BigJeffeRonaldo]

But it does. It depends on the organization, but there are groups where chugging coffee, talking a lot, and pumping out dozens of half-working features by coding like a drunk cowboy will get you promoted and recognized as a team player, while pushing back to take time and do things right will have you reprimanded. Many such cases out there.

[vinceguidry]

My point is that you shouldn't push back. Just do things the way they need to be done, and it takes as long as it takes.

A manager looks at a programmer bringing up something like unit testing as "why the fuck is he asking me about this, it's his job? Obviously because he's asking me it's outside of his professional ken, so that means it's going to take absolutely forever." Out loud he'll just say, "Can you just get the feature done?"

Don't ask, just do it. It takes as long as it takes. If they ask, just say it's not done yet.

[BigJeffeRonaldo]

This generally won't work for straight forward game theoretic reasons. Boss thinks you're slow->boss brings on h1b consultant willing to pump out spaghetti code and toady up to him->you looking for a new job. Organizations get what they ask for

[vinceguidry]

The boss doesn't have to think you're slow. You could... gasp... be good at your job.

[MaulingMonkey]

Being good at your job won't magically make you fast at fixing up other people's spaghetti code. It won't let you ship 3 working features faster than someone else who's also "good" at their job ship 6 mostly broken features. It won't convince your manager that the former is actually getting more work done than the latter, and won't prevent them from thinking the first guy is slow and the second guy is fast.

But for what it's worth, I agree with you in that I'm still on the hook. Either to help educate my manager, or to pick managers who already understand this stuff.

[BigJeffeRonaldo]

I can tell you're upset, Vince, so I'll be the one to end this discussion.