[aphextron]

I wish people wouldn't downvote someone for an alternate opinion. It's interesting to see the Russian view point on these things. I think the parent poster is indoctrinated with the typical anti-western mindset, but it's still valid and adds to the discussion.

> He basically ran a superpower into the ground in 6 years flat, from space shuttle to hunger and abject poverty

The Soviet Union was in free fall economically long before Gorbachev. It was a systemic failure. To pile the genocidal failings of 3 generations of communist rule onto the first leader to free his people from that oppression is a terrible perversion of history.

[throwaway122916]

I lived in Soviet Union as well during the collapse. I think there is a lot of propaganda from the west that makes you think it wasn't Gorbachev's fault.

People were happy, had children and believed in their country and made progress in art and science. Then one person who possibly had good intentions "gave everyone freedom". You can't just do that without consequences. It should have been a very gradual transition similar to how it is in China. Instead the country got completely destroyed. Every single thriving industry collapsed and people's savings were worth nothing basically overnight. Police stopped enforcing laws, gangs appeared all over the place, everyone started doing drugs. It was a disaster.

Gorbachev was almost immediately hated throughout the country.

If USSR economy was in free fall, how come GDP per capita was about 2x smaller in Soviet Union compared to USA in 1989 while income distribution was much more even?

Edit: If you believe propaganda in US doesn't exist, look at this law https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

[viljar]

> People were happy

Russians - may be, All the other oppressed and occupied nations - no. Cant vouch for other but almost every Estonian secretly hoped for freedom and despised Russians. When our chance came we acted swiftly. Soviet Union was just another form of Russian Empire and a way to try to control the world.

[WeaselNo7]

This is a similar tale told by friends from Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

[egman_ekki]

However, for people in these countries it wasn't a tale. It was a harsh reality...

[dragonwriter]

> I lived in Soviet Union as well during the collapse. I think there is a lot of propaganda from the west that makes you think it wasn't Gorbachev's fault.

The Soviet Union, when Gorbachev took over, had spent itself to the brink of collapse in a decades long military spending competition with the richest nation on the planet and it's rich allies, and papered over that with propaganda, which was itself weakening after some notable and hard to cover up setbacks.

Gorbachev pulled back some of the veil of propaganda simultaneously with (and as part of) trying to engineer a soft landing. It's true he largely failed, but I doubt anyone could have done much better (an authoritarian might have managed to paper over things longer and direct blame at external actor when the bottom eventually fell out, and by doing so remained more popular at home -- at least, among Russians if not the rest of the people under Soviet rule.)

I think much of the perception that things were his fsult is a result of pre-Gorbachev propaganda (mostly Soviet, but also Western propaganda about the strength of the USSR that served to shore up support for the Western side of the spending war.)

[gspetr]

Free his people? The man actually walked all over the will of the people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991

Those who grew up in Russia in the 90s see this differently.

People had to turn to growing vegetables in their rural cottages (dachas) to survive. Massive unemployment, staggering inflation. Gang leaders elected as mayors and governors who murdered anyone who dared to oppose them.

Does any of this sound like you would want in your country?

[viljar]

People always had to grow vegetables in their dachas to survive up until the collapse of soviet union. In the beginning(1944+ for Estonia) authorities snatched everything you grew and shipped it to russia and murdered anyone who tried to oppose and some who didn't, just in case. No wonder Moscow lived prosperously:) I remember very vividly the empty shelves in shops as long as I can remember and my memories span few years before Gorbatchev came to power.

The referendum results are interesting. Estonian independence referendum results division matches closely the ratio of natives and civilian population of that the occupying power(USSR) transferred into the occupied territory. Same with the voluntary referendums organised by pro-Soviet front-organisations. The count of voters is close to illegal occupant's population. We were lucky. After breaking free we did not suffer such harsh conditions as you have mentioned(Gang leaders elected as mayors and governors who murdered anyone who dared to oppose them.) Economy boosted and living conditions improved drastically every year.

We can safely establish that part of the soviet union wanted to stay together and part of it did not. And the results varied drastically country-by-country - nation-by-nation.

[general_ai]

Methinks if you guys didn't help the Nazis, you'd be treated more humanely immediately post war. I can sorta understand the lack of love the Soviet government would have towards you at the time.

At the same time the Baltic republics always felt like an artificial part of the USSR, only a little closer than e.g. Bulgaria or DDR. The same can't be said of Belarus and Ukraine, which were culturally, ethnically, and territorially more cohesive in the greater whole, and the loss of which was tragic, and has repercussions to this day.

[viljar]

Yeahh, go to Poland and tell them how they "helped" nazis and that's why they were run over by Soviets:)

EDIT: Culturally we were even farther from CCCP than Bulgaria, I guess, but that is my opinion only formed from my own experience visiting all those countries You have mentioned.

[general_ai]

And I guess we should just forget about Forest Brothers and stuff, amirite?