[ForrestN]

No. The new administration is systematically undermining the norms that held up our strong democracy, on purpose. Any student of history recognizes moves like lying about crowd sizes, delegitimizing peaceful protests, and undermining the press. The president is lying daily about millions of people voting fraudulently; why should anyone have any confidence in our democracy, whether you somehow crazily believe him, or whether you know he's lying?

[decaysackparity]

You seem to be going with the assumption that previous presidents told the truth. Trump is not as charismatic with the lies like Obama.

[ForrestN]

No. Any reasonable analysis comparing the two presidents shows immediately that Trump is in a whole other league. I'm not saying Obama was perfect, but he was most often misleading. Trump is saying the sky isn't blue, over and over again, and then forcing his communications team to say so as a loyalty test. The New York Times has now put "lie" in headlines describing Trump multiple times, and he's been in office less than a week. In a long campaign and then eight years governing that never once happened with Obama.

[shuntress]

You knew when you wrote this that the only response will be "Thats because the NYT wants Obummer and hates Trump"

How is it even possible to come to the table when we cant both agree "Most large news sources come close enough to the truth"?

Just look at the crowd size thing. We can't even agree on a basic simple fact. We have to fix that before we can even think about starting to discus larger issues. But the issue of "We can't agree on basic simple facts" is a large issue so I guess we are just boned.