[conjectures]

+1 totally agree about comedians.

We know that bullshit is asymmetric: it takes long to clear up than to cast. The way to take it down is to rip on the caster until they stop (or look ridiculous in voters' eyes) - this requires facts yes, but more importantly presentation.

[protomyth]

That can backfire pretty hard as it did in the last election. Ripping on the caster rarely stops with the one person. Going after whole swaths of people eventually just drives them not to talk except in a voting booth.

I said it in another thread, if you keep demonizing people, they will eventually send demons.

[intended]

I'm always surprised by variants of your argument because it presupposes there is some sort of dialogue being held. I'm an outsider and it's very clear that the right doesn't see it as a dialogue, they see it as a no holds barred fight.

Your right wing has been caricaturing and demonizing your left wing for a long time.

I've learnt a lot watching the Republican Party follow its discipline. The day Obama won, they rallied and fought for a one term president. At their nadir, they turned themselves around. That's something.

Today they have won most of the seats of power and have stymied the president for 8 years. They even have the chance to decide the next SC judge, something Obama should have had the right to (as I understand American politics)

A few of the things that come to mind - the complete shutdown of your government, the creation and agitation of the tea party, birthers, gun boats (or something), the refusal to increase the federal debt ceiling, their positions on medical insurance.

Not to mention Manufactured issues on evolution and climate change.

My rebuttal is that this fear of demons is redundant, the right is long past believing that demons have (literally) been sent. Their tools and tactics are specifically designed to stall and steal power from old liberal strongholds - science and learning.

You no longer have the luxury of deciding the terrain on which to fight. Tactics are all that's left.

For the record I used to be a bridge builder. A few months ago I would have given similar advice. But building bridges in the networked era is unlikely because of the echo chamber effect.

Until that problem is solved, other tools are needed to deal with current issues. And these tools also serve a bridge building purpose - negotiating with a party who has no leverage is redundant.

[redler]

I don't recall where I saw it, but someone put it this way:

The Republicans and Democrats were playing a board game. Not liking how the game was progressing, the Republicans set the house on fire. The Democrats are still sitting at the board, surrounded by flames, weighing the tactical implications of moving various pieces in response.

[conjectures]

Except that it didn't, because it wasn't attempted. Michelle Obama said, when they go low, you go high. Clinton was pretty respectful in the debates. I'm not saying nobody mocked Trump, I'm saying opposing candidate and their close associates didn't. There's a big difference because things that get said in the debates etc. get seen by the opposing camp in a way tribal-affiliated shows and magazines don't.

There's also a difference between taking the piss effectively and just calling people names. E.g. calling Trump a misogynistic idiot isn't funny or persuasive. There was a lot of righteous name calling, but not much satire - from the right people.

[EdHominem]

> Going after whole swaths of people eventually just drives them not to talk except in a voting booth.

Pft. I wish I lived in a world where Trump supporters lived in silence before the election. I don't buy this, at all. They were the loudest, most self-entitled, and they always represented themselves as victims.

Anyone looking at the numbers knew the election would be within 5% either way, so it's not like those 45M republicans were hidden, it was only a question of if the last 5M would get up on polling day. If they would, the conclusion was foregone because country-voters cast larger votes than city voters so they win all ties.

> if you keep demonizing people

You see - perpetual victims. Even though they won they're still going on about being hurt. If saying someone voted for a liar because they didn't bother to look up the facts is demonizing, then I don't know what you ever could say that they wouldn't complain about.

[jackmott]

Lots of people with strong opinions on what not to do. Not seeing any opinions on what TO do.