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by beachy 3433 days ago
Eons ago, I worked for Lotus Software (way before they belonged to IBM) on an exiting new product - their flagship Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet product, in those days the preeminent spreadsheet offering in the world, ported to the IBM mainframe.

I travelled around Europe as we sold this to large corporations who wanted the power of the spreadsheet, but multipled by a gazillion times and made multi-user.

Almost every customer was so receptive and excited, it was a fun and job and easy sell.

But later, we learnt that those customers were in fact the early adopters, and Lotus never did manage to cross the chasm with that product. Later Microsoft produced Excel and..well the rest is history.

My conclusion: the world doesn't need a better spreadsheet. Existing spreadsheet technologies are good enough for the hokey, half-baked things that people like to build with them.

5 comments

I like that you're bringing up Lotus, but I was thinking of a different product: Notes.

It's from another digital software age and from experience, hard not to think of the applications created with it as archaic monstrosities, yet there was something there.

In many ways it was what the OP is talking about: a networked formbuilder that allowed for people with technical skills roughly equivalent to that of an Excel superstar to build actual line of business apps.

For those same reasons, it had lots of issues. Often a spreadsheet is the right choice, maybe not when it gets to be 200MB and corrupts itself because multiple people are accessing the same file across the network.

Notes apps worked until they didn't, but are still kind of fascinating in their awfulness.

Apps like Lotus and Access get a bad rap that is unjustly deserved. People did a lot of amazing things with those applications.

The presence of zombie Notes apps that spew out of control is more a statement about IT than the platform. My mom, not a power user, was a public health nurse. She put together with a sophomore intern what grew into a good sized disease outbreak tracker after IT failed to deliver. All in Notes.

The IT idiots discovered it and got all puffy. They siphoned off funding and stuck its "enterprise" replacement into some portfolio process. 5 years later and $5-6M spent they launched a replacement that didn't quite do what it needed to do. She retired almost 10 years ago, and that little app still lives for a few use cases.

I used Notes as recently as 2010 at a mega Corp. Another friend was using it in 2013 at a professional services firm.

Those apps were simultaneously powerful and broken. The sheer number of apps the company had was staggering. "There's an (notes) app for that", only 20 years prior.

There was something there. What you say is definitely true. When I made Notes apps though, there was always some scripting involved in terms of LotusScript for the Notes client, or Javascript for the browser. There was a Java API as well in the late 90s that some people were using instead of LotusScript. It was a bit more powerful, obviously.

Of course, some people just used the @ formulas.

Anyway, I haven't come across anything that so naturally expressed document workflow with forms and email integration. People complain about Notes email, but it was nice to have it so tightly integrated with the Notes capabilities.

Spreadsheets changes lives like mine. Especially 123. The second most .exe used on the pc, behind doom

123 put extreme power in the hands of skilled users. If you mastered print code strings it provided for many promotions and tech opportunities. Even today the spreadsheet is the Letherman or slide rule of old time geeks.

I still have a 123 startup disk for my compaq ( no hard disk. 2 floppy version. )

123 changed many people's lives. Truly.

I thing that good spreadsheet application with seamless integration with web and with collaboration tooling would be interesting. Decent scripting with something Julia and some kind of build in Jupyter notebook would be exciting to use. Integrated version control where each document lives in own repo that you can shared as just link shpreadsheet:://user.myNewspreadsheet

Excel is relict of old ages: slow, bug ridden, impractical. In my job whenever I need to work with excel I feel pure hate. I send hundreds of this shit to people that are non technical and they... they... send it back.

I think of spreadsheets as like q-tips. Apparently the one thing that the manufacturers of q-tips tell you not to do is to stick them in your orifices. Yet the number one actual use of q-tips is people cleaning gunk from their ears.

People build the most insane, unmaintainable, insecure messes using spreadsheets - because they can.

But they can also build a lot of really useful things too, and many do, and create a ton of value.

The same can be said for any programming language/tool. Reminds me of this quote attributed to Doug Gwyn:

"Unix was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things."

And you can FAST. What else is there for quick and dirty stuff????
iPython or Jupyter Notebooks, where you can whip up R, Julia, or other code in your browser, interspersed with markdown, charts and formulas.
Emacs
I like to use org-tables for my spreadsheets:-D

I'm joking... mostly. That said, I really have used elisp functions on an org-tbl in anger before.

There is also ses-mode (Simple Emacs Spreadsheet) that started shipping with Emacs since version 22.
Collaboration is great, but it should start with files. I want to be able to save things to a directory and send them via email. And have a stand alone format that can be archived. File based work flows are used for good reasons.
As I very vaguely recall the initial iteration(s) of the Windows version of Lotus 1-2-3 weren't great. The real killer though was probably Microsoft's bundling into Microsoft Office. That cemented the use of the entire suite of Microsoft products even when, at a given point in time, they may not have been best in category.

As I recall, Lotus made some purchases to try to follow the same strategy but it was too late by then.

There were also the attempts at fully integrated products like Symphony and Framework (Ashton Tate) but the loose coupling really won the mass market.

Lotus went straight to OS/2, because Windows was a toy. Oops.

Around 1991 they had an all-new cross-platform super-product under development, but it crashed and burned and they had to plough on with 123.

I did a lot of the low-level GUI coding for the Open Look and Motif versions of 123. Fun times.

Would that be Lotus Improv? I used Improv and Quantrix on NeXTStep. Quantrix on OSX is still a secret weapon of mine.
I don't think so. They all had code-names - 123 for Windows was Rockport; Improv was Back Bay and the one I'm talking about was another place, but the exact name escapes me.

I believe Improv was written in Objective-C while the one I mean was in C++.

C++ is impressive for 1991. Excel was still K&R C at that time.
Did you also get to work on Lotus Improv? What are your thoughts on that in comparison to traditional spreadsheets?
I used Improv and Quantrix on NeXTStep. Absolutely loved it. I still use Quantrix on OSX to this day.
Nope, I don't recall anything whatsoever about Improv. Lotus Notes was the new goodness a little later on.
I remind Jobs saying 'even half done your thing is so revolutionary you owe the people to sell' or close.

Improv is way above the pack... so much it's not a good thing.