[burkaman]

Of course there's a path, but it's a very difficult, not at all guaranteed path. Compare this path to a guy with money in the bank, a college degree, a decent resume, and 60 hours of spare time a week saying "just study a little and start applying to jobs, anyone can do it", and you can see why this thread seems so condescending. And imagine saying "you've got nothing to lose" to someone like this with a kid. This isn't a contrived scenario, there's millions of people like this in America. You might say it's irresponsible to have kids in this situation, but it's not quite that simple.

There's no doubt that we live in a better world than the past, but I don't think it's helpful to spread this idea that anyone can succeed if they just try hard enough. That's the goal, not the reality, and it will never be the case that everyone has an equal chance to succeed.

[JoeAltmaier]

Depends on the kid, the family and the market. Willing to move for the job? No? Why not? Willing to work in a related field until you can get into your first choice? Why not? Willing to switch jobs 3 times in the first 5 years? Why not?

Folks have unequal chances for sure. But a significant fraction of the differences are, what they're willing to do.

[burkaman]

These questions are still from the perspective of someone with money, education, and options. Imagine you're talking to someone below the poverty line, not your friend with a comfortable but unsatisfying job.

> Willing to move for the job?

Sure, how? What if I have no money and no credit? You're asking me to come up with a down payment on an apartment, transportation to another city, some kind of rental van or moving service, and a landlord who will take someone like me.

> Willing to work in a related field until you can get into your first choice?

Related field? I can't get anything above a minimum wage job. My "first choice" would be literally any job with predictable pay and hours.

> Willing to switch jobs 3 times in the first 5 years?

I'm working three jobs right now so my family can eat.

Again, this is not a contrived example. Millions of people live like this.

[JoeAltmaier]

My buddy from down south moved to Silicon Valley, with his wife and newborn baby. They camped in the State Park in a tent while he interviewed. It took moving, taking an entry-level job and doing whatever was asked for him to succeed.

[burkaman]

That's great, but you're essentially describing the last steps of a successful transformation. How did he get the skills and experience to qualify for entry level jobs in Silicon Valley? How long was he interviewing, and how did he pay for food during this time? Did he have any savings or fallback plan in case he couldn't get a job? If so, how did he prepare that? How much did it cost to get his family to the valley, and where did that money come from?

[camelNotation]

I'm not sure if you've ever been without money based on your questions. If you aren't making much money to begin with, there is no fallback plan or savings. It doesn't exist, whether you are going for a better job or not. You save just enough to do what you need to do and you risk everything to go. You pay for travel the cheapest way you can, usually on a bus of some sort. It's not a clean process.

I'll readily admit that there is a certain reprehensibility to those who insist that the poor are just lazy. Most poor people aren't lazy, they're just depressed, misinformed, and without hope. They are fundamentally disadvantaged.

However, that's not what is being said here. No one is contradicting that. What I'm saying is that despite their disadvantage, there are ways to escape. It's never going to be easy for them. They are never going to go from poverty to a six figure developer job, but no one in history has ever jumped directly from the bottom to the top without an extraordinary event or miracle.

John Adams said - "I am a soldier so my son can be a shop-keeper and so his son can be an artist."

The American dream is not overnight wealth. It's not wealth in even a single generation. It's the chance for more. Someone who is very poor can make the most important leap of all fairly easily: unskilled to skilled labor. They can go from the guy with nothing to offer to the guy who can run electrical wiring or the guy who can fix pipes and they can do this very cheaply in a very short amount of time. From there, they can earn enough to either go to college themselves, teach themselves, or pay for their kids to get ahead.

[JoeAltmaier]

No plan; no fallback; crummy $100 car; cheap gas at the time.

Its good to plan things; but sometimes the friction prevents action. That's all I'm getting at.

[burkaman]

I really feel like you're ignoring the substance of most of my comments. Friction is often a factor for people who have the means to do this, but do you understand that many people don't have the means? At the absolute minimum, your friend needed several hundred dollars in the bank, and a resume that included more than high school and minimum wage jobs. I think you're taking this for granted, but it's nearly insurmountable for, again, millions of people in America.