[ggame]

I think you have your parents mixed up. Assuming this was for me; I walked you through the logic and am in total agreement that a large part of the rational for the EU was to prevent war in Europe.

My case is that the EU is undemocratic. Therefore when the these two are conflated the resulting inverse is democracy is a war risk. I gave the case of my pro EU German friends but I know many others.

A counter argument would be that the EU is democratic but no one is making that.

Of course America with its democracy exporting foreign policy gives the rational that democracies don't go to war. I understand why the idea that democracy is a war risk is so foreign. (Assuming you're also American)

I'm pro democracy and anti-war and I believe the EU, despite its intentions, is the cause of circumstances that will lead to war. The definition of irony. Already we can see the rise of openly fascist parties, it won't be long until they start winning elections.

[pjc50]

No, you've not laid out the logic by which that statement follows from the others.

> America with its democracy exporting foreign policy gives the rational that democracies don't go to war.

I'd actually argue quite a lot with this: the US does not export democracy, it exports capitalism and calls it democracy. It's quite happy to overthrow democratic socialist governments.

Really the key factor is that trading partners don't go to war, because then it's unprofitable and/or they don't have enough independent infrastructure to survive. You can't go to war with your nose to spite your face. This is partly why, despite the bad relations between the EU and Russia and the small war in Ukraine, the gas pipeline remains untouched. They need the money and we need the gas.

And your inference that I'm American is also wrong. I'm an Englishman living in Scotland supporting Scottish independence within the EU. In fact, I spent a lot of time trying to be a "reasonable" Euroskeptic for years, but this year of the referendum I gave up because the unreasonable side has taken over. Yes, the EU is not very democratic and parts of the EU get economically steamrollered. Guess what - this happens within countries too. Greece is to the EU as 80s Liverpool and the "north" was to the Thatcher government: abandoned.

Leaving the EU does not make Europe go away, it doesn't solve any of the economic or social problems, but it does remove a mechanism for resolving them peacefully.

The UK is not very democratic on close inspection either, and all these threats to remove one of the few bits of black-letter constitutional law we do have - ECHR - are really not encouraging.

[ggame]

Once again we are in violent agreement. Trade is the strongest defense against war.

In the same vain, economic sanctions are a prelude to war and in many cases considered an act of war. Which is why the EUs economic sanctions against Russia are troubling. Such sanctions would not be possible without the EU.

I too have many problems with hypocritical US foreign policy.

I did not infer you were American, I assumed for sake of argument in an effort to tailor my response. I then let you know about my assumption so I could be corrected. Which you did, and thank you.

I don't understand what you're trying to refute. I agree with all of your points; EU was started to stop wars, trade and not democracy prevents wars, and the EU is undemocratic. All of these points are inline with the statement that "many people believe that a democratic Europe is a war risk" which is what I thought you were refuting?

I think economic sanctions is a bigger war risk than democracy, but I'm not "many people"

[simonh]

In what way to you think the EU is not democratic? All member states are required to be stable democracies. The governments of members guide policy and the institutions. It has an elected parliament. Most members joined after holding referendums. The only country that has decided to leave did so in a referendum. It's hard to see how it could be very much more democratic.

Mainly the EU is a bureaucracy, so many of it's heads are appointed just like any bureaucracy, but they answer to democratically elected leaders.

[ggame]

I'll defer to the wealth of online information on this topic.

That said even my pro EU friends don't make the claim that the EU is democratic. Usually pointing out that the U.K. and the US are not that democratic either. The U.K. being a monarch with a hereditary House of Lords and the US being a federation (see previous election).

I also hold the view that democracy does not scale well beyond city states and that a federation is preferable so long as the federation has constitutionally limited powers. This way demicracy still dominates the affairs of the citizenry. Unfortunately federations have a habit of extending their powers which is where the political system becomes less democratic. I would argue that the EU has increased their powers over time and the system has become less democratic. I would argue the same rule applies to the US.

[dragonwriter]

"federation" and "democracy" aren't alternatives, they are descriptions of features on orthogonal axes.

[ggame]

I never said they were alternatives. I specifically referred to federations of democracies where power is shared between state and federal government.

[simonh]

The crown and the House of Lords are peripheral details in the UK. The elected parliament is the sovereign authority.

[stuaxo]

The house of lords is a bit more than a detail.

The crown may not be part of our democracy, but that is the problem considering how much of our land they own.

[simonh]

It's a detail. They are effectively an advisory body. They can recommend changes to legislation but the Commons can always overrule them.

If you're talking about the Crown estate, it is outside their control and the revenue has been at the disposal of Parliament since the reign of George III. Estimates of the private wealth of the Queen put her at about number 302 in the UK rich list. Hardly a gatekeeper of national wealth. Do you actually know anything at all about the UK's constitutional arrangements?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_the_British_royal_...