[mkohlmyr]

Admittedly I haven't used GIMP in a while, but the entire selection interface was awful last time I did. That's a very basic thing that was constantly annoying to me. Wether I can grok it or not really doesn't matter. Normal users don't want to have to grok things. It didn't feel intuitive, and as a result it only took a few hours of using Photoshop CS3 to never want to go back.

[exDM69]

Here's the thing: "normal users" looking for a free-of-charge alternative to commercial apps are not the typical target audience of open source productivity tools. They're primarily targetted to scratch the authors' own itch, and secondarily to benefit anyone who finds it useful in the hopes of more contributions.

Average Joes (nor non-contributing professional artists/photographers) are typically not beneficial to these projects, at worst they are a hindrance: tons of help requests (in the bug tracker), low effort bug reports, requests for Windows/OSX binaries (without offering to help in maintenance), etc. You can find some ugly examples if you look into bug trackers / mailing lists of some of these projects.

We can only hope that a benevolent philanthropist comes by and drops a few million dollars in to getting full time, paid developers into GIMP, Blender, Inkscape and all the other open source productivity tools but until that happens it's a mostly volunteer effort and the contributors can choose what to focus on.

If Photoshop suits you, great. I've managed to do all my image editing in GIMP for the past 20 years and I'm very glad the project exists.

[mkohlmyr]

I too have managed to do lots of image editing in GIMP. That doesn't mean it was a pleasant experience.

I am not trying to tell the volunteers what to work on, but if we can't give honest product feedback to FOSS projects on the basis that they are volunteer efforts, then those projects will never succeed broadly. If you don't care about succeeding broadly that's fine, but I get the impression from gimp.org that they would like to.

This disregard for "normal users" that often exists in the FOSS community is so completely and utterly self-defeating. If you want FOSS to succeed you need projects to be successful in the marketplace. You need "normal users" to reach that scale.

[exDM69]

> This disregard for "normal users" that often exists in the FOSS community is so completely and utterly self-defeating. If you want FOSS to succeed you need projects to be successful in the marketplace. You need "normal users" to reach that scale.

Yes, this is unfortunate but I don't see how it could change. I'm afraid that maintaining a scale big enough to include "normal users" and competing with commercial options would require more resources (read: money for full time development) than there are volunteers available. It's not just a matter of changing attitude.

The GIMP project has already exceeded the threshold of immortality and it's an invaluable tool, so I consider it a "success" regardless whether it's user friendly or competitive with commercial options.

[prokoudine]

> but if we can't give honest product feedback to FOSS projects on the basis that they are volunteer efforts

Why can't you give feedback to the GIMP team?

[DonHopkins]

Because they glibly brush it off, like the way when someone makes an honest point by giving you feedback that "gimp" is an offensive term that inhibits its adoption by "normal users" in professional and educational settings, GIMP team members like yourself actively seek to be offensive and attempt to turn it around, by accusing them of being "people who apparently seek to be offended", instead of acknowledging the well know dictionary definition of the term and addressing the problem.

The purpose of GIMP is to edit images, not fight political correctness or offend disabled people or reclaim offensive words.

Do you understand this definition or not?

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/gimp

The noun gimp is sometimes used to describe a limp or another physical disability, although it's an outdated and offensive word to use.

If you comment on someone's gimp, call the person a gimp, or say, "Look at that guy trying to gimp across the parking lot without his crutches," you've chosen a very objectionable way to talk about a disability. People will know what you mean if you use the word, but they're likely to be offended by it. Gimp was first used in the 1920's, possibly as a combination of limp and gammy, an old slang word for "bad."

[prokoudine]

First of all, my question wasn't even targeted at you.

Secondly, we don't brush off feedback. We listen to it and extract as much useful information as we can. If you personally can't provide any useful feedback, then there's little we can do.

[DonHopkins]

Yes you most certainly do glibly brush off feedback -- you just did that to me right now by ignoring my question targeted at you, and you've done it to me multiple other times in this very discussion.

Telling somebody you don't do something that they just saw you do with their own eyes is called "gaslighting", which is what you are now doing.

And now you have another chance to do it again, and you've asked me for feedback, so let's see how that works out.

If you really sincerely don't brush off feedback, then please answer my questions about your understanding of the word "gimp", and address other people's feedback that I will quote with linked citations, instead of brushing off our honest feedback yet again.

Since you're asking me to provide feedback, then here it is:

Here are some specific question for you to either answer (which I would sincerely appreciate) or brush off again (which will yet again prove my point that you're guilty of glibly brushing off feedback and gaslighting):

1) Do you agree or disagree with the dictionary's definition of the word "gimp", or can you cite a legitimate dictionary that says that the primary definition of the word "gimp" is the name of an image editor?

2) Do you agree or disagree with the dictionary I cited that "gimp" is "an outdated and offensive word to use"? Provide citations that support your point, without making unsupported claims about what other people think.

3) What is the purpose of naming an image editor "GIMP", and stubbornly refusing to change it after many people over many years give you lots of feedback that it's offensive?

4) Is GIMP's primary mission to "reclaim" the word "gimp", or strike a blow against "political correctness", or is it merely intended to edit images? Is it the primary mission of GIMP users to re-educate the world about the meaning of the word "gimp", or are they mainly expected to use GIMP for editing images, instead of redefining words?

Here is a typical example of honest feedback met with a glib response that shows how GIMP team members and evangelists make audacious claims like "our approach is to redefine what "Gimp" means," while making false unsubstantiated claims about how the majority of the world understands the meaning of the word "gimp":

http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-developer/17151-gimp-in...

Sam Bagot, 2015-04-08 17:58:53 UTC (almost 2 years ago)

Gimp in private schools and educational institutions

Hi, my name is Sam and I have been involved in several projects ranging from art classes in public schools to local art communities around Austin. I am a Linux person and use Gimp for everything. I keep running across the same problem though. The name Gimp is offensive to people and suggests inferiority to Photoshop. In my experience, institutions would much rather pay for a professional product than teach a class to children involving gimps. Which is also inappropriately associated with BDSM sex. Either way it's looked at. A product called Gimp can't be used by a public or private school.

Is there any thought on salvaging the marketing effort and renaming this product so that it can be taken seriously by people and institutions? Also, a big barrier to entry adopting Linux for people is a solid graphic manipulator. The bad branding is causing many people in my art communities around Austin to avoid Linux in general.

What are the plans on renaming and success?

Simon Budig, 2015-04-11 10:54:13 UTC (almost 2 years ago)

Gimp in private schools and educational institutions

Hi Sam.

Sam Bagot ([e-mail]) wrote:

Basically our approach is to redefine what "Gimp" means. In the vast majority of the world "Gimp" refers to the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, the alternate interpretation is unknown to most people in the world.

Renaming Gimp would hurt our brand badly and is not an option.

If it is a problem in your local area (some areas in the US typically) that is unfortunate, but we need to rely on your powers to explain that we're helping in getting rid of the derogatory interpretation of the term "Gimp".

Bye, Simon

5) How do you respond to this typical honest longstanding feedback (I can cite many other instances of this type of feedback, but let's focus on the previous recent one and this older one):

http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-user/2965-please-change...

Roland Hordos, 2006-09-29 14:54:48 UTC (over 10 years ago)

Please Change the Derogatory Name

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

Thank you.

Roland Hordos IT Manager

6) Do you stand by this glib brush-off of that feedback from GIMP team members: "On the techincal side Sven Neumann has explained he does not wish to see the project renamed and will not accept patches to make it easier for third parties to change the name." http://www.advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/diary.html?start=1...

7) Do you agree with Sven Neumann's unsupported claim that there are "very few people" who have problems with the name, and his accusation that those people are "so narrow minded"? Do you accuse me personally of being narrow minded for having a problem with the name? http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer%40lists.xcf.berke...

8) Do you have any proof or scientific surveys you can cite that support Sven Neumann's extraordinary claim that "For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special meaning." Because he makes unsupported claims that contradict all the dictionary definitions I can find, which all say "gimp" is offensive, and none of which make any mention of the GIMP image editor. http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-user/2965-please-change...

9) Who funded this worldwide survey of most people on the planet about the meaning of the word "gimp", where can I read it, and why didn't you put all that money into developing GIMP, listening to feedback from its users, fixing its bugs, improving its user interface, supporting its developers, and changing its name instead?

You asked for this feedback, and now you have it. I am really looking forward to seeing you take my honest feedback that you requested seriously, and addressing my questions this time around, instead of glibly brushing them off and gaslighting me yet again.