[obombration]

> This one's a bit unique as it all began with a small group of teenagers in Jessheim in Norway in the late 80s/early 90s. They wanted to be 'evil' and 'extreme' but they lacked the musical ability to rival the predominantly (at the time) Swedish and American Death Metal scenes. So instead they did what anyone would do (not) they started burning down churches, proclaiming themselves 'Satanists' and killing each other.

That statement ignores a big part of the black metal aesthetic and does a huge disservice to the many great musicians in the scene. The raw production values were in response to the rising popularity and commercialization of death metal around the late '80s and early '90s and the 'plastic' production that came with it. Listen to Soulside Journey and then A Blaze in the Northern Sky and try telling me it wasn't absolutely intentional. Then listen to anything Emperor released and try telling me "they lacked the musical ability to rival the predominantly (at the time) Swedish and American Death Metal scenes."

Euronymous spent tons of time perfecting the production of De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas. Whether it sounds harsh to the average listener or not (it does), he went out of his way to have 1) audible bass (check it out on headphones sometime), 2) thunderously huge drums and 3) cacophonous guitars, true to his playing style. These were all calculated, intentional decisions, meant to drive the cold, bleak aesthetic.

[Applejinx]

Indeed. Also, there's an interesting side-issue in that the 'corpse sound' of Black Metal was a conscious rebellion against overproduced death metal, but the same choices from a rock band would read as RAW, not 'bad'. There are parallels with AC/DC, who continually struggled against the record industry's desire to slicken and produce them.

I like the heck out of De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas (you'd never think it to look at me) and have listened to it on a really high-end professional mix system with very good DACs and amplification, and far from being 'corpse, bad' sound, they actually managed a big, live sound that delivers the impact of a black metal band quite well. Just because it's not 'slick' doesn't mean it's low fidelity. For instance, Jethro Tull's 'Aqualung' is a very similar 'raw' sound but strikingly high fidelity on the right equipment.

I strongly recommend the documentary, "Until The Light Takes Us" if you're interested in black metal. Varg "Count Grishnach" Vikernes in particular, interviewed in prison, has a lucid and striking account of the motivations of the early Black Metalists.

[careersuicide]

On that note: I consider "Black Metal: Evolution of the Cult" by Dayal Patterson a must read for any fan of black metal. Patterson went straight to the sources as much as possible and managed to paint a complete and (perhaps more importantly) non-sensationalist picture of the genre from just before it became a discrete thing up to the around the time the book was published in 2014.

[careersuicide]

I take extreme exception to their characterization of the beginnings of black metal. Not just because of the unfortunate dismissal of technical ability. Rather, anything that doesn't start off by mentioning Venom and Bathory and instead jumps to what is arguably the second wave totally outs itself as not having actually listened to what the larger names in the genre have themselves said. If you read interviews with the members of bands who started in the late 80's and early 90's they all have the same influences in common (with few exceptions): Kiss, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Bathory, and Celtic Frost. Skipping ahead a decade kinda misses how the aesthetic was established. Which as you mentioned was very much intentional.

[ZenoArrow]

Slightly off topic, but any recommendations on Mercyful Fate stuff? I don't know much of their back catalogue, though I did play this at a Halloween party once, I enjoyed it immensely, other people not so much!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObAaVZwULH4

[careersuicide]

Personally I'd recommend "Don't Break the Oath"[0] or "Melissa"[1]. But really their whole LP discography can be listened to in an afternoon. King Diamond as a solo artist has been a bit more prolific though.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpk1wJ62CrQ

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_PjBUcbzqY

[Floegipoky]

Actually they mentioned Venom, and did describe the "churchburners" as the second wave

[careersuicide]

This is what I get for scanning for the quoted part, finding it, and assuming that was all that was said. I take back what I said.

[tptacek]

Tangential question: how do you get around how overtly racist these bands are? You're citing Darkthrone, for instance, which is basically the poster-child band for teenagers using metal as an excuse to shoot people and burn things.

[obombration]

> You're citing Darkthrone, for instance, which is basically the poster-child band for teenagers using metal as an excuse to shoot people and burn things.

No, they aren't. You're thinking of Varg Vikernes of Burzum, and maybe Faust from (early) Emperor. Fenriz, Nocturno Culto and most of the rest of the Norwegian scene had nothing to do with Varg's 'black metal politics'.

As for getting around how "overtly racist" those bands are: you can't, at least with releases like Fullmoon's United Aryan Evil. If the subject matter bothers you, you simply don't listen.

[tptacek]

Right, but Vikernes collaborated with Darkthrone, didn't he?

I can appreciate a lot of metal, but do not generally enjoy black metal just on musical grounds. But I find with repeated exposure I can usually find something to appreciate and enjoy in almost any music. When I was a teenager I had friends who were into the Black Metal scene (mostly because of theatrical bullshit like Vikernes and Euronymous), but after learning how racist the bands were, I decided not to acquire a taste for the music.

[actsasbuffoon]

They collaborated a long time ago. The last collaboration I'm aware of was a few decades ago when they allowed Varg to write some lyrics while he was in prison for murdering Euronymous. It's hard to know why they did that.

Varg has maintained that Euronymous was planning to kill him. When asked why he thinks Darkthrone allowed him to write some lyrics despite being a pariah in the black metal community, he said that he thinks Fenriz believes him about Eronymous' plans. He said Fenriz may think it was unfair that Varg was charged with murder for killing a man who was planning to murder him.

That's obviously not how the law works, and what he did was deeply wrong. That said, I can kinda understand feeling some sympathy for someone in that situation.

Who knows if Varg is right about Fenriz. Frankly, Varg believes some pretty crazy stuff, and I'm not inclined to trust him about much of anything. But you never know. Maybe Fenriz took pity on a really screwed up kid who made a terrible mistake.

Anyway, onto the subject of racism. I think there was definitely a bit of racism in the early black metal scene. It's hard to know if it was genuine or just some kids trying to find a way to shock people. Either way, it seems like that's mostly gone these days (I can think of a few exceptions, but they're seemingly rare).

Black metal (and the people who create and listen to it) has grown up a lot over the last couple of decades. Fenriz even got elected to local office in his hometown!

[Poiesis]

Do you have some references for this (I was afraid this was a problem but hadn't looked into it)? Been wanting to talk to my son about that. He loves the music, he's seemingly not racist, but repeated exposure to that crap is not good.

[actsasbuffoon]

It used to be a problem, but I haven't seen much overt racism in a while. Avoid Taake, as they're popular (won the Norwegian equivalent of a Grammy recently) and are outspokenly racist. I have no idea what the hell the awards committee was thinking.

Other than that, Varg (of Burzum) is also a neo-nazi, but he hasn't written any black metal in 20 years. In fact, he stopped writing black metal around the time he became a neo-nazi.

Aside from that, I don't think you're going to find much popular modern black metal that is openly racist. Maybe some band members are secretly racist, but they know better than to talk about it if they are.

My (now) wife introduced my to black metal over 15 years ago when I was still a kid. I turned out fine, and still have no tolerance for racism.

[ZenoArrow]

Maybe someone can recommend a documentary, but I think the thing is that there's a difference between enjoying music and buying into a lifestyle. I can't say how your son sees it, but he may just like the music.

If you look back at the music you enjoyed in your youth, I'm guessing you could find some music you like made by people with a questionable moral compass. However, you don't have to think about such things with music, sometimes it's just about the way it sounds.

If you're concerned about your son, why not see if you can broaden his musical horizons outside of metal, maybe there's something you'll find that you'll both enjoy. If you'd like a starting point, perhaps your son may like some classical composers like Bela Bartok, some of his pieces are easy for metal fans to appreciate:

http://youtu.be/YOcvPaFY9UE

[butterfinger]

Anti-religious music seems to invite anti-semitic people, so I'd guess there are more racist bands in black metal than in other genres. But the majority of black metal bands are not racist. There's a small fraction of bands where we know that some members subscribe to right-wing ideology and some of those bands have racist lyrics, but overall it's negligible.

[tptacek]

It's several of the most popular Black Metal bands, isn't it?

[loonattic]

Mostly just "NSBM". Usually pretty easy to tell, and not the most popular bands.

[butterfinger]

"Popular" is pretty hard to define in a genre like black metal. Looking at "The greatest black metal bands" [0] I found 6 bands where at least one of the members has ties to right-wing ideology with 3 of the bands being outright neo-nazi music.

[0] http://www.ranker.com/list/best-black-metal-bands-and-artist...

[kkl]

I think this is true of "Second Wave" black metal bands but less true of more recent output.

[loonattic]

It'd possibly be better for your son to respect his taste in music, and not dismiss it as crap.

[zzalpha]

Pretty sure the "crap" he's referring to is white supremacism and not the music itself... but kudos on the self righteous parental advice.

[loonattic]

My parents referred to it as such. Meh, most people think it's crap anyway, so of course I'm going to be uncomfortable playing music around other people. Probably not that big of a deal anyway.. How is it "self righteous"?

[tptacek]

Pretty much anything you read about Darkthrone in particular is going to point out their involvement with Varg Vikernes (who basically put Black Metal on the map) --- who is a neo-Nazi (a "blood and soil nationalist") and a convicted murderer --- and released an album with overtly antisemitic messages.

[butterfinger]

Which Burzum album do you consider to have overtly antisemitic messages? Varg only started being a Neo-Nazi in prison and after releasing most of his influential music. So this says nothing about Darkthrone.

[tptacek]

Sorry, unclear antecedent. Was referring to Darkthrone.

[loonattic]

I had listened to black metal for years, and avoid all of it with racist messages yet I even have listened to Burzum (mostly Filosofem), which doesn't itself have any racist messages I am aware of. Not like I listen for the lyrics. But it can be a "danger" since I did read into some of the shit Varg has written.. but the great majority of the music has no racist messages.

I was really into Darkthrone and still think they're okay, and I have nothing against any race or ethnicity.

Just one that I am aware of, and they apologized later, was their comment about "Jewish behavior".

Also, this:

    Den Norrøne Rase må Slakte den andre
    når blåmenn dunker for tungt på vår dør

Other than that, I don't know of anything else.

Being concerned over it sounds like wanting to ban violent videogames, overprotective. Like hardcore Christian parents against their children listening to rock music, but maybe not as much since black metal is basically how those kinds of hardcore Christians see normal rock music.

[butterfinger]

Thank you for claryfying! Would you mind to elaborate on that? I'm not a huge fan of Darkthrone and while I know that many of their songs are anti-judaism I don't remember any racist lyrics.