[moon_priestess]

Discrimination is often subtle and the people doing it rarely know they're doing it. It's often simply impossible to point to a specific email as "proof" of discrimination.

That hardly means all genders and minorities are equally welcome, however. If you've ever been to a tech conference as a moderately attractive woman, you'd know how unappealing these communities can be at times.

Seriously though, this is a post by self-appointed "elder" ESR telling women and minorities what is and isn't discrimination, that things they've experienced almost never really occur, how they're individually unimportant, and that most people who complain are mentally disturbed, drama queens, or political carpetbaggers. If you cannot understand why this article is a perfect example of the problems in the community, I can't help you.

[mjolk]

> If you've ever been to a tech conference as a moderately attractive woman, you'd know how unappealing these communities can be at times.

You're inventing an anecdote and using "can be at times" to weasel out of making an actual statement.

It's amusing because that's actually even mentioned in the article:

> It isn’t sufficient to say, for example, “Women (or black people, or gays) can’t get their patches accepted, or are sexually/racially taunted on forums.” and then wave your hands as though the accusation itself is to be treated as evidence and anyone demanding specifics is part of the problem.

[moon_priestess]

> You're inventing an anecdote and using "can be at times" to weasel out of making an actual statement

What statement do you want me to make? That I've experienced discrimination? Okay, "I've experienced discrimination." Are you happy now?

> It's amusing because that's actually even mentioned in the article

Yes, in a way that DEMONSTRATES THE PROBLEM. Instead of trusting that most people who claim discrimination are actually experiencing discrimination, ESR is demanding they submit forms in triplicate that somehow prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt so high elder ESR will spend his precious time fixing the issue. Most women and minorities do not make shit up for the sake of taking advantage of Eric Fucking Raymond. If many people are telling him there are issues, there are issues.

[mjolk]

> What statement do you want me to make? That I've experienced discrimination? Okay, "I've experienced discrimination." Are you happy now?

This is actually probably why ESR wrote this article. You saying that you've "experienced discrimination" doesn't mean that I'm obligated to take your claim at face value and it especially does not mean that there is a systematic problem related to your experience.

ESR isn't saying that racism, sexism, whatever other crappiness don't existing in the world, he's saying that for the sake of the open source community, it's very important to be sure that there's a fire when you scream it, lest people stop responding to the word "fire."

> Instead of trusting that most people who claim discrimination are actually experiencing discrimination, ESR is demanding they submit forms in triplicate that somehow prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt so high elder ESR will spend his precious time fixing the issue.

In America, if you go to the police to report a crime, they will consider your claim based on how realistic it seems and if there is any preliminary evidence. When the court becomes involved, the evidence is scrutinized. Are you suggesting that this is the wrong way to do things? Would you prefer to be in a world where feelings and claims are more important than evidence?

> Most women and minorities do not make shit up for the sake of taking advantage of Eric Fucking Raymond. If many people are telling him there are issues, there are issues.

Again:

> Third: show me your evidence. I want to see evidence of specific harm, attack, or attempts to exclude, on identifiable victims, by identifiable perpetrators. It isn’t sufficient to say, for example, “Women (or black people, or gays) can’t get their patches accepted, or are sexually/racially taunted on forums.” and then wave your hands as though the accusation itself is to be treated as evidence and anyone demanding specifics is part of the problem.

I can't believe how quickly this article has become useful.

[moon_priestess]

> he's saying that for the sake of the open source community, it's very important to be sure that there's a fire when you scream it, lest people stop responding to the word "fire."

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that most people who claim prejudice are "mentally disturbed, drama queens, and political carpetbaggers" and calling for people to be thrown out of the community.

> In America, if you go to the police to report a crime, they will consider your claim based on how realistic it seems and if there is any preliminary evidence. ... Would you prefer to be in a world where feelings and claims are more important than evidence?

What the hell are you talking about? In this post, ESR is claiming the open source community is practically magically immune to prejudice because of "hacker culture" even though it is somehow an issue in industry, academia, and everywhere else. The idea that a community overwhelmingly populated by white males is free of prejudice is ridiculous: It would be totally unlike every other such community that exists.

[Edit: I meant to specifically refer to communities on the scale of the open source community here. I don't meant to say a startup with five white male employees is somehow automatically problematic. When a large community is primarily composed of members that haven't experienced discrimination, they do tend to be bad at noticing the subtle effects of discrimination and the lack of obvious diversity does tend to make people feel unwelcome.]

This isn't about my feelings. Prejudice exists. Studies have shown prejudice exists. Something as simple as having a foreign-sounding name causes people to judge you as less trustworthy. The idea that this doesn't carry over to hackers is laughable.

Besides, this is not about going to the police and reporting a crime. This is about ESR denying the open source community has any problems that need addressing. This is ESR saying everything is 99.99% based on merit and everyone should feel welcome and almost everyone who doesn't is either mentally disturbed, a drama queen, or a political carpetbagger. It's ridiculous!

> I can't believe how quickly this article has become useful.

You are exactly the sort of problem we have to contend with. Keep taking ESR's claim about the mental illness of those who claim discrimination at face value while you refuse to even entertain our claims unless we have evidence sufficient for a jury trial. You're disgusting.