[wildmusings]

You're right that it's a very much an American perspective, but I disagree with the characterization. How is it snobbish and selfish to want to live my life the way I choose to? Do you think that you are doing public works in giving strangers the gift of your physical presence on a shared rail cart?

[wcummings]

>Do you think that you are doing public works in giving strangers the gift of your physical presence on a shared rail cart?

Not at all, but in my experience if you probe into why people avoid public transit, it's usually some variation on "I don't want to be near those people". I've literally heard those words verbatim from more than one person.

I spoke with a former coworker who has a practically door-to-door bus trip to work with a 20m headway (that I used to take, it was very fast and convenient, never had problems with other passengers). They chose to drive to the edge of the city where they could park w/ their permit, and then walk a pretty significant distance to work, just to avoid the bus.

It's a lower-class stigma, the bus is "for poor people" so people won't take the bus even when it's objectively the best option. If the "way you want to live" is going to great lengths to avoid people you think are beneath you (not saying this is you, but I've absolutely met people like this), that's pretty much the definition of a snob.

[wildmusings]

I'm going to venture a guess that it's not about poor people and more about crime and drugs and rudeness, which may sometimes correlate with but are not determined by economic class. A group of obnoxious rich teenagers can be as bad as anyone else.

I don't want to take a bus where people are stumbling drunk, arguing with the bus driver, talking about their heroin adventures, playing their music loudly on speakerphone, etc. These are all things that I experienced on the bus in Seattle, particularly but not exclusively during off-peak hours (e.g. 10:30am on a workday). My friend had an even worse experience: the person behind him was almost stabbed by a raving lunatic, saved only by two quick-thinking bystanders.

And I'm just a single young man. Would you want to expose your children to that?

Whether you want to accept it or not, the world is full of bad people, and even more people who don't share your code of public behavior. Why should you have a social duty to deal with that?

[wcummings]

>I'm going to venture a guess that it's not so much about poor people and more about crime and drugs and rudeness

Maybe Seattle is just a shithole but these kinds of things are rare in the cities I've lived in, the worst I experience regularly is people being loud and even that is uncommon, especially during commuting hours.

>Would you want to expose your children to that?

I see school-aged children taking the bus whenever I ride around 2 or 3. I've been on the bus when entire classes of children get on with their teacher to go on a field trip. I took the city bus home from school when I was in school, the city provided free passes for kids who lived a certain distance from their school. Heaps of people bring strollers on the bus, there's a special space for them at the front and everything.

[wildmusings]

There are other people replying to you in other threads with similar experiences in different cities. Good for you that in the city you live in, on the routes you take, you don't experience this stuff. But maybe you shouldn't be so quick to call people selfish snobs.

[wcummings]

I've used public transit extensively in a bunch of cities, as have friends of mine. These experiences are the exception, not the norm. Statistically, crime is low on transit systems, including in the cities mentioned itt. It's not perfect, but the problem is more about perception of safety than actual crime.

[wildmusings]

Only a one of the things that I and others described would even register in the crime statistics. Playing loud music, acting intimidating toward other passengers, having gang tattoos, stumbling drunk, arguing with the bus driver, are either not crimes or are seldom reported.