[brennen]

> Reddit seems to be doing fine now

Hrm. I resisted this view for quite a while, but as far as I can tell in 2016 reddit is a pathological and destructive ocean of trash fire lunacy which incidentally hosts a few islands of relative sanity.

Of course it's hard to generalize about any cultural venue at the scale of reddit. But it really seems to a lot of observers that the pathology has by far outstripped its prosocial functions.

[mundo]

The problem with generalizing about Reddit is not its size, it's that Reddit is made up of a bunch of separate forums with separate mods and rules and users and so forth. It's just a place where discussion boards live. Reddit : forums :: Blogspot : blogs.

[brennen]

I used to make more or less this same argument, by analogy to Usenet, phpBB forums, etc.

My take now is that this falls apart in that the pathologies of reddit are down to a shared platform (the voting system, moderation tools, etc.), userbase, and site culture. While it's true that userbase and culture are differentiated between subreddits, they aren't really isolated enough, and maybe more importantly, things like GamerGate and /r/The_Donald keep happening.

It doesn't work to assume that every space or interaction on reddit is terrible, but at this point in history it works pretty well for me to treat reddit itself as a terrible meta-space: It routinely and actively produces systems that damage society, out of all proportion to its positive effects.

(Edit: I should add that I was on reddit pretty early in its lifecycle, probably owe my career to proggit in some very important sense, and sincerely feel for the people who have to _run_ the damn thing. It's been a pretty amazing platform in many ways, and it still feels kind of bad to write it off.)

[mundo]

> the pathologies of reddit are down to a shared platform (the voting system, moderation tools, etc.), userbase, and site culture.

I don't buy this, not a whit. I think /r/the_donald and /r/woodworking are as different as any two phpbb messageboards on the pre-reddit internet ever were. What is the same between them (the voting, mod tools, etc) are not opinionated enough to affect the culture, they are the bare minimum necessary to make the site work.

I don't think Reddit has changed as much as you think it has. It had its share of racists and trolls back in the halcyon days you remember, and it dealt with them (or didn't) pretty much the same way back then as it does now. If anything it is doing better on that score. But I do agree that something has changed, and I have a theory on what that is, which I will now share with you (and the one or two people who ever read HN comment threads more than a day old):

I think that what's changed is the, shall we say, meta-conversation about Reddit in the larger media. For the past 2-3 years or so, the question, "Is Reddit racist/sexist/etc?" has been a newsworthy one. Like any newsworthy topic, it has generated commentary: pro- and con- essays, nuanced opinions and dumb ones, insightful well-researched articles and misleading clickbait journalism, blog posts, FB comments, etc, etc. It spawned numerous sub-controversies (Did Ellen Pao make things better or worse? Was banning /r/whatever censorship or not?), each of which was a new opportunity for all of the bloggers and journalists and randos to weigh in again and argue some more.

Point is, if you follow this meta-conversation, by reading articles about Gamergate and Ellen Pao and so forth, you are exposed to much more of the worst Reddit has to offer than you would've been simply by using Reddit as a discussion forum to talk about fly-fishing or programming or whatever it is you went there to chat about. From the sounds of it, you did follow this stuff, at least casually. And it seems plausible to me that that changed your opinion more than any real change in the underlying "character" of Reddit (to the extent that such a thing even exists).

[brennen]

Eh. I see your point. I'll grant that it's more or less true, from a certain angle: My thoughts on reddit are influenced as much, these days, by its effect on the wider world as by experience on the site itself. My direct participation trailed off some 3 or 4 years ago, judging by my comment history there. On the other hand, my participation tailed off in part because being on the site was becoming actively unpleasant, and I think that the direct experience of phenomena like GG is a reasonable basis for judging a community that fosters them.

(To be clear, I think a lot of the delta here is a question of scale as much as anything. I'm well aware that there were always virulent racists and ideological misogynists present in the userbase.)

Anyway, we disagree and that is that. Thanks for a reasonable interaction.

[mundo]

Likewise!

[CamperBob2]

The model of Reddit as a multistory building with a basement is flawed from the outset. It's more like a building in n-dimensional hyperspace. No matter what room you're in, the doors that lead to every other room, as well as to the street outside, are never more than a footstep away.

The same is true of the Web as a whole, at least until we allow governments and other special interests to start nailing various doors shut.

[brennen]

A building in n-dimensional hyperspace where a large group of violent assholes are on the other side of ~50% of all doors.

[CamperBob2]

Who can't come through the door to the room you're in unless you invite them.

[brennen]

This does not actually seem to describe the state of the internet generally. I gravitate more and more towards little pocket-universe parts of the network that are essentially invisible, but (apropos of the article) things like comment sections are quite often the functional equivalent of a giant neon ASSHOLES WELCOME sign above the door.

[CamperBob2]

You just have to remind yourself that the assholes are just shadows on the cave wall, the same as you are to them.

And again, the cave entrance is never more than a few steps behind you.

[brennen]

BRB, walling off various cave entrances.