[anoctopus]

Could you explain what you think is wrong with Clojure? Maybe it's because I've spent far more time using it than CL, but I see Clojure as having a very consistent, well designed core. It's very opinionated in it's design, but it's a practical and pragmatic one. I don't see what's unlispish about it.

[ilurkedhere]

I use Common Lisp, and now sometimes Clojure. I don't get why folks call Clojure a modern-Lisp. I miss the cons cell abstraction, the multiple values support, condition system, the fast start-up times, the native compilation, and executables.

Stacktrace in Clojure with no possibility to restart also make me sad.

[pjlegato]

All of these are rather minor secondary issues not related to the core Lispiness of the language (with the possible exception of cons, which is in any case still not terribly important in a practical sense as there are mostly equivalent alternative ways of organizing your code.)

[qwertyuiop924]

Conditions are something I miss in Scheme. They sort-of-not-really exist in my Scheme of choice, and it makes me sad.

[qwertyuiop924]

Well, there's the fact that lists aren't conses, and conses as Lispers would expect them to exist don't. I think conses are pretty useful.

But Clojure has the cons operator anyways. This also means that clojure's `read` violates one of read's important guarantees: the structure you read in will be identical to the structure you wrote out.

Then there's the macro system. Given, it's better than CL's in some respects (it does what you want by default), but there are problems. Like not being able to use macros inside the packages that they're defined it. It's just generally less clean than Scheme's solution, and less versatile than CL's.

And then there's all the things its inherited for Java: and object system that isn't properly OO, a lack of TCO (which would be fine, if it weren't for the fact that the language so very clearly wants to have TCO)

At the end of the day, Clojure's fine. It's not terrible or anything. I just disagree with some of its design decisions, just like with Racket.

But I do object to it being called The One True Lisp for practical use, because that's nonsense. Scheme and CL are both quite practical, and while most Schemes/CLs don't have the Java interop that makes Clojure so full of nice libraries, most of them do have a C FFI. And the C FFIs they have (at least in the Schemes I've seen) are some of the nicest around.

[anoctopus]

I agree that it isn't the One True Lisp, because there will never be one. Clojure is just a nice, modern lisp with some ideas I really like at the core of it's design.

I don't really care about having conses the way CL has them, and seqs feel like a very nice abstraction over the concept, though I also tend to use the idiomatic map-heavy style anyway.

Clojurescript has the staged macro issue, but JVM Clojure doesn't.

I wouldn't even say that Clojure has an object system, and wouldn't want one. Lacking TCO is a shame.

[kazinator]

All that immutability humbug, for starters. Traditional Lisps are "everything you can access is mutable".

Lisp trusts the programmer to be responsible with mutability and not to abuse it. The trust is not misplaced; the sky doesn't fall.

[anoctopus]

Immutability was what I had in mind calling it opinionated, and it's an opinion I agree with. After learning Clojure, I now hate working in languages with mutability. It obviously isn't necessary to make working applications, but I like not having to think about where else I'm passing this particular data structure, and the language has enough escape hatches for places when it really would get in the way.

[kazinator]

This is merely a psychological issue, because when you're programming in an "everything-mutable" Lisp dialect, you also don't worry about this. If you don't know where else you're passing that data structure and don't care to find out, then ... you don't mutate it. Libraries and API's simply don't mutate the inputs that you pass to them, unless loudly documented otherwise. Thus, mutation is applied in controlled ways whose scope is easy to ascertain and limit by inspection.

[qwertyuiop924]

...Especially in Scheme, where mutation is, by convention, loudly proclaimed! (not-quite-pun intended)