[natec425]

I do think Python is an acceptable language for beginners, but I wouldn't say it has little magic. It may feel intuitive at times, but Python's magic methods can be somewhat disorienting for students. This usually hits when students reach for-loops (and to some extent during branching due to __bool__).

Also, Python may feel like a small language at times, but it is really quite large and complex. This can be seem by imagining a beginners perspective when Googling for help with a simple list operation. The inevitable Stack Overflow answer will almost certainly use a comprehension. I would argue that Pyret is actually fundamentally less complex than than Python.

As always, the biggest issues are your goals, constraints, and resources. If you can afford to spend time in a language optimized for education, that is fantastic. If you can't afford that time, python starts to look like a good trade off relative to the languages with reasonable job prospects.

* It doesn't make me an expert, but I do teach programming for a living. We use happily use python for introductory content and server-side web content, but I can easily see Pyret as a great option for an educational offering with different constraints than mine.

[jventura]

I have to agree with you, Python does really have lots of magic things, such the for loop, list comprehensions and generators, to name a few.

I also teach programming for a living, and, for instance, I usually have a hard time explaining to students what a for loop over a range() means for having a index. The problem is that there are a lot of things going on behind a for-each (which is what the for loop on Python does) and it is hard to explain that to newcomers. On the other hand, for loops in languages like C are simpler to explain to newcomers, as there isn't much hidden from you, and you don't have many alternatives for iterating on an array.

I would say that the higher-level benefits of Python are best understood when you have some experience with lower-level languages such as C/C++ or Java. For students, if they have time, I would say that they would benefit pedagogically by learning a simpler language with less functionalities. If not, I would say learn Python, but expect to not understand everything at first.

[volkk]

fair argument. this was in college, so i had a lot of resources available and very particularly picked curricula so i didn't bump into any of the magic methods until i graduated college and used python in production.