[throwaway95837]

I am 100% owner of an internet company making 7 figure profits annually. I am extremely secretive of my business, almost to the point that some would consider a pathology. However, I will divulge my hiring strategy, because even if everyone uses my method, there will still be many employees for me to choose from.

I look to hire people who just need a job. People who are qualified, but not overly qualified. People I know will depend on the job for a long time, but not looking to make it their lives. Hard workers - getting there on time, but also leaving at the stroke of 5. Ivy league schools are a red flag. Huge resumes are a red flag. These people will constantly question whether every decision is optimal, prod incessantly at company strategy, continuously try to impress, and are always hungry for praise, recognition, and "interesting work." When they get bored after 6 months, they quit and go somewhere else (remember they can easily do so because of their pedigrees), often to a competitor, bringing company secrets with them.

I need someone loyal, who knows how to take orders without question, and is prepared to do the work that needs to be done day in and day out because they want the paycheck. Reading the above, you might think I'm a terribly demanding boss, but using this hiring strategy has produced a 100% employee retention rate and by all accounts we are all quite happy.

[tossaway1]

The question was what tech skills will you be hiring for and your answer was essentially I just want a plodder who's not overly smart and won't question my authority. Sound about right?

[throwaway95837]

Tech skills are only one dimension of a multidimensional process that employers like me use to make decisions. I am here to offer contrarian advice that might be helpful to someone early in his career who might be a great programmer but may also be dismayed because he thinks the only path to a successful tech career is devoting your life to your job or going to an ivy league school and I am here to say that is not the case.

[mattschmulen]

I don't understand why (forgive me for the generalization) blue collar work ethic and blue collar loyalty are so often dismissed in the tech field. Some of the best advice I ever received was 'execute in the seat your in'. Sure there are higher order strategies to work out but grow into it and growth is around growing into the company, not just growing into your specific vertical profession. Kudos on your directness.

[bleachedsleet]

A few reasons I can think of off the top of my head:

1) Anything that can be effectively described as "blue collar" will probably be replaced by automation within 3-10 years depending on the job. 2) Creative thinkers should be valued more highly in the tech field than those that can just follow orders blindly. Very few tech fields emulate an assembly line and the ability to think for yourself and develop an alternative solution is and should be highly valued. 3) Most people in the tech field, both employees and employers, are probably intellectual to a degree and free thinkers in and of themselves. So the cycle continues.

I'd also like to point out that this idea of a blue collar work ethic is somewhat flawed. There is not specific work ethic associated with the blue collar worker naturally; it's just a result of never having enough money for pleasure, so work becomes a part of the routine. The job doesn't matter as much when you're dirt poor as long as it's making money, and the risk of job loss is what you're describing as loyalty. This is really nothing more than a capitalist machine at its worst, not some utopic worker's attitude we should all aspire to.

[IndianAstronaut]

>Very few tech fields emulate an assembly line and the ability to think for yourself and develop an alternative solution is and should be highly valued

A lot of management hates this. Less skilled managers, just want a dev shop where they can build and assemble parts.

[dhimes]

It might have something to do with the business you're in. If you are b2b in certain areas, innovation isn't as highly valued as reliability. In fact it can be downright disruptive.

[lostboys67]

And the traditional "blue collar" jobs often have/had "Spanish" Practices designed to game the system - eg postal workers deliberately holding back first class post on a Friday to provide OT at the weekend - or doing a go slow in order to get a bung in a brown envelope.

[sunir]

That seems fatalist to me. The idea of a work ethic is to avoid fatalism and enjoy the present moment.

[bleachedsleet]

I think this is an idealistic view of what a work ethic is. This may be anecdotal, but I left home earlier than I should have and worked my fair share of "blue collar" jobs as a result and in none of these jobs were there people enjoying the present moment or describing any sense of loyalty to their jobs. They all hated their lives, hated their bosses and hated their jobs. Many could probably fit the description of a borderline alcoholic because that was the coping mechanism: Work all week, 9 to 5, then cut loose on the weekends until sloppy drunk and forget that you had to wake up and do it all over again Monday. And yet they were all "hard workers" with what may be described as a good work ethic. They cared because they had to...they needed the job and for them, anything better was a pipe dream. People in this position will literally fight each other for just a few extra hours of work...work that's shit and barely pays for a cup of coffee per hour. When you have the luxury of quitting, a strong work ethic should be valued higher because it shows an employee that genuinely takes pride in what they do. But when your life literally hangs in the balance of an extra shift a strong work ethic becomes instantly more selfish and less of an objective measurement of someone's capacity and instead is just a modern statistic on how far someone will go to survive. Most of these people are not noble altruists; they just lost their ambition when they realized their childhood dreams could never be accomplished and they've made the best of the situation. Working class heroes, indeed.

[varelse]

I can only respond with "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work" which is my favorite Edison quote. A 9 to 5 effort IMO will have disappointing 9 to 5 results. If you offset that with a fantastic personal life and a sensible retirement strategy, that's an epic win. If instead you squander that time on couch potatoing, you might want to rethink that outlook.

I wouldn't work for this guy, I want to work with people who are smarter than me and from whom I can learn new things. That said, he's right to not want someone like me, I get bored pretty quickly when I'm the smartest guy in the room so I try like hell to avoid that situation. But to each their own of course.

[mahyarm]

The plodders he wants are not well paid either. The people who tend to rise to the top of silicon valley companies tend to be like he describes, and tend to work many many hours.

[throwaway95837]

You don't have to be at the top of a silicon valley company to have a successful tech career. I wouldn't want that for myself. Too high stress, not enough free time. I think that people that rise into those roles truly enjoy the stress and challenges of such a position, and good for them, but it's not something I'd ever want for myself.

[platz]

what does the successful tech career that doesn't involve 'devoting your life to your job' look like?

How would is such a person define success for themselves, and how does your prescribed plan achieve that?

In other words, are you prescribing a plan that is beneficial for the company, but bad long-term for the employee, because they didn't grow enough by not 'devoting their life to their job'?

[blueatlas]

I read it more as he doesn't really care as much about specific skills, and will hire for grit and some level of loyalty. He also doesn't seem to beat people over the head with their job.

I get this.

[beachstartup]

here, i'll paraphrase for you, since i'm a "real world" hiring manager as well, with a business that i keep anonymous/secretive on hn.

"a reliable person who can actually, really, like, totally for real drive a problem to resolution and then go spend time with family. if there's an emergency, they pick up their phone and try to help."

this is a small percentage of the population, but big enough. it's why we (based in california) have a 75% remote workforce. hint: we still pay california $. that's how you retain talent. everyone on my team lives in huge houses and i live in an apartment.

you'd (well maybe not you, but you know what i mean) be surprised at the number of super-intelligent ("smart") people who can't solve problems when the pressure is on.

[tomne]

That pitch is great, if rarely seen.

My job entails emergencies from time to time, and it's rewarding to solve an issue at the customer, before it gets out of hand, while still solving problem on the long-term roadmap during the day.

What I do regret is the complete lack of remote, meaning I will pretty much leave this job soon, as my fiancée is currently living on the other side of the planet.

It's great to see companies that do care for employees well-being in other ways than office perks, and I'd love to see more of that in the future. Are you still looking for applicants?

[beachstartup]

> Are you still looking for applicants?

i don't recruit on hn. i will say this though: most people like you, if given the opportunity to work for a smaller, unknown firm for less money remotely, and a larger well known 'famous' firm for more money on-site, they will usually choose the latter even if they really want to work remotely.

in other words, "i want to work remotely" usually really means, "i wish i had all the upsides of BigCo with none of the downsides."

[tomne]

> I don't recruit on hn.

I can't blame you on that one.

Still, I want to address something. Remote work is a different paradigm, it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare the two of them. The upsides are pretty different, and so are the downsides.

I'm sure some people do not realise it requires a wildly different skill set, as well as a different mindset, to work remotely. The first thing that comes to mind is communication, the next is processes, and that's not the end of the list.

I'd take the job getting me closer to my loved ones any day over a job at BigCo personally, especially considering I feel strongly about the upsides. To each his own, I guess.

[j_s]

I can see why HN would trend towards the "don't wants".

Are you willing to share any communities or other resources you do use for recruiting? No pressure at all here, just curious.

[beachstartup]

well, most people check craigslist, no matter what their station in life/career.

[jayajay]

That's because super "smart" people are taught that they will have 2-3 weeks to prepare for their biggest problems. In real life, big problems happen overnight, and you wake up to shitstorms. That said, some brilliant people emerge from Ivy Leagues, too.

[w_t_payne]

Funny. I've spent most of my professional career trying my damndest to ensure that those shitstorms do not happen in the first place. :-)

(Not always successfully -- I have to admit -- but I try).

[blauditore]

This is a very good argument, and something many devs/managers don't understand well enough.

I've seen a couple of such shitstorms where we had to hack on production systems to get them back to work quickly before thoroughly fixing the actual problem. Almost always, it could have been prevented with proper unit testing, code reviewing and more thought-out deployment processes.

[lordCarbonFiber]

An ounce of prevention beats a cure. The "smart" people are the ones that know taking the extra time to set up tests, controls before production, effective logging and documentation, are the ones that DONT have to wake up overnight to shitstorms.

[throwaway95837]

I used to be surprised but after witnessing this many times it doesn't surprise me anymore.

[TheMissingPiece]

Not surprised at all. I wish more people would emphasize at least _working_ on social skills or real-world problem solving. We would all benefit from this.

[lj3]

This sounds like the kind of job I'm looking for. The problem is, my resume is filled with those red flags of yours because I used to be that guy with the huge resume who was hungry for "interesting work". Now I'm just a senior dev looking for a steady paycheck away from the rat race. Any tips for how I go about communicating that to potential employers?

[Retra]

Your resume only contains what you choose to put on it.

[theparanoid]

A resume doesn't need to be exhaustive. It's common to leave off a J.D. when applying to non-law positions (precisely because of this).

[uniclaude]

Where I live (Japan), this is the most common strategy. The best way to get a job in Japan is to tailor your resume in order to show a maximum of loyalty. Anything too far from the norm can be a red flag (like not being married).

The best advice to take from your post is to make sure you know which type of company you're applying to. A small bootstrapped lifestyle business probably won't hire like a hot SV funded startup, which makes a lot of sense.

[borplk]

Being married is the norm in Japan? I thought they had a ton of singles.

[tonyedgecombe]

When they get bored after 6 months, they quit and go somewhere else

I thought you had 100% retention rate?

[rmdashrfroot]

100% reading comprehension, great work.

[throwaway95837]

Read carefully. "using this hiring strategy has produced a 100% employee retention rate."

Those who left were hired at an earlier time when I thought hiring the top tier Ivy Leaguers was the way to go.

[che_shirecat]

this post reeks of wishful thinking and general bullsh*t. "100% owner", "7 figures", "100% retention rate" - some really lazy hyperbole...

[logicallee]

I and others read his post carefully and agree with it/believe it. The 100% retention rate obviously just means he isn't seeing churn - if he doesn't do anything he won't have to fill the seats that are filled today on his team in four months due to churn. It's obvious that that part wasn't literal: he told us of the experience of employees leaving (to go to competitors, and taking his trade secrets / competitive advantage with them - and that the people who did so had superlative/"ivy league" credentials.) nothing wrong with his post.

By the way 7 figures covers everything from 1,000,000 to 9,000,000 - so I read it as being barely seven figures in profit, or I would accept if the actual bottom line profit were 700k-1M (so that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call it all "profit"). However the top line (sales) has to be (well) over 1m or I am unhappy/consider it too much embellishment.

OP - what does the top line look like? Roughly how many employees do you have?

[lscore720]

I laughed, I'm pretty sure it's satire. Right?

[throwaway95837]

If only I had taken the advice in life I dismissed so quickly out of disbelief, just like you're doing now, I'd be where I am so much faster.

[mk4p]

Advice such as?

[mahyarm]

It's possible to have a %100 rate when you haven't been around long.

100% owner also means they bootstrapped and were a solo founder.

[VLM]

Seem to be dancing around saying you preferentially hire military veterans without actually saying it.

Basically you've described my serious, competent, self disciplined ex-mil and reserves/NG coworkers. Wait... do I work for you?

[mgav]

Hmmm. Your "who knows how to take orders without question" requirement (paragraph 3) would discourage every great person I've ever met, while weakening your overall enterprise (what if the Titanic's jr. officers had respectfully asked questions about going full speed at night in waters known to have icebergs?).

[VLM]

Manage your boss by not screwing up their OODA loop. Open your mouth at the Observe stage no matter if they want you to or not, don't distract them at the O and D stages, and make the best as fast as possible of their Act stage. Slowing down or sabotaging their O,D, or worst of all, A, makes you look like a problem and slows the loop cycle time making the likelihood of future bad O or D even higher while also pushing the correct A out while possibly cutting into future Observe stage available time, a quadruple lose-lose-lose-lose situation, which is impressive in its own way.

[awinter-py]

That model may work for fighter aces but it doesn't work for the office. In any project that takes more than a day you spend most of your time in the 'Act' stage and get a ton of new information before you finish executing.

Technical managers have to be sensitive to new information, * especially * when it ruins their spec.

[UK-AL]

I don't think he wants great people. That's the point.

[user5994461]

I think he wants cheap people. Everything he is looking for is hinting at cheap.

[lj3]

Not necessarily. He says he operates in NY, so he can't pay too cheap. Even the most loyal employee will jump ship if the competing offer is 2x what he's currently making, especially with NY cost of living.

What he wants is stability. You'd be surprised how many very smart people put a premium on that sort of thing, especially when they get older.

[user5994461]

They won't get 2x offers if they don't have a pedigree and can't handle hard tech interviews. (Which is what he's filtering for).

An employee with limited options = A more stable employee

[lj3]

Humbly disagree. 2x offers depends on how little he's paying them to begin with vs how easy it is to switch jobs. You don't need a pedigree or be able to handle hard tech interviews to switch jobs in NYC. You just need to go on a lot of interviews. Eventually, one will say yes.

NYC isn't exactly a place where you have limited options. You want limited options? Try to find a job upstate.

[UK-AL]

In this situation the employer has stable option, you'll stick around no matter the crap.

From perspective the employee it isn't stable. Sounds like he'd get rid of you, if you disagree with anything.

[nkohari]

It will also create a company that can't grow past the point where you are the lynchpin. Good leaders find people that will put them out of a job, not lackeys to do whatever they say. If you're happy where you are, then I congratulate you on your success, but when was the last time you took a vacation?

[throwaway95837]

Actually the business mostly runs itself and I usually spend only about 2 hours a week on it. The business has a healthy profit margin so I can afford to over hire and build in redundancies so that even if one person is out sick for a few days, the other person picks up the slack without me having to do anything. Unlike many other companies who overwork their employees, I try to make sure that every employee can easily finish everything by 5pm. Otherwise things build up, problems arise, things don't get done, and I'd have to step in, which I don't want to do.

[bootload]

"hire for attitude, train for skill" [0] is the business usual, this reads more like "hire for attitude and aptitude" [1]

[0] https://hbr.org/2011/02/hire-for-attitude-train-for-sk

[1] https://www.eremedia.com/ere/hiring-for-both-attitude-and-ap...

[stratigos]

This is really freaking hilarious when you look past how cruel and exploitative it is :).

Your hiring strategy is not "your" hiring strategy: its every mindless, exploitative, and compassionless corporation in the universe. In otherwords, youre overwhelmingly average! Youre contributing to the very problem youre having: no one wants to work for an entity that operates like this.

[tbendixson]

It's funny. I have always suspected employers were looking for this sort of thing. Hence the odd glee in their voice when they hear me talk about spending my hard earned money on discretionary purchases. The more I spend, the longer I stay.

Perhaps the takeaway for all of us is that we all need to be humble and at least pretend we need our jobs, even if we're aggressively saving for an early retirement.

[happywolf]

I kind of agree this strategy, but do note I am not looking at being cheap. My people are paid well above market rate, the point is I need execution and work done, there is a limit on how out-of-box and creative an employee should be. One can question the technical solution or even the business model, but after a decision is made by the business owner, execution must be done instead of incessant arguing over the merits and demerits of such decision.

As such, I tend to hire those who don't take oneself too seriously. The OP's redflags I feel are corollary to this observation.

Be humble and get shit done.

[antisthenes]

Where are you based? Sounds like the type of company I would like to work for, because you figured out the almost lost art of vis-à-vis loyalty.

[throwaway95837]

I am based in new york but not currently hiring

[deskamess]

This actually seems reasonable and fair under two criteria:

- Questions... people need to ask questions (but not ad nauseam).

- Compensation... 'need a job' should not translate to a desperate wage

Understanding and acknowledging your employees have a life after work is important. The only question I have is how, or do you give out bonuses from your yearly profits.

[muratsu]

How do you solve management problems when scaling?

I understand your reasoning when it comes to well defined business requirements with well defined technical problems. But once the initial set of requirements are done, how do you proceed? I suspect you need at least some amount of overachievers to fill mid-level management roles.

[rinchik1]

Sounds like a 50 Shades of Gray scenario...

[drrectangle]

The problem with loyalty is you can only spend it in one place. Its like a points card at a grocery store.

[williamwrites]

Do you have anything available and how do I apply?

[Wheaties466]

thank you for this answer. I'm glad that this is being enforced because this is literally me 100%. Glad to see that other people are looking for someone like me.