[a-real-dinosaur]

If you have to do things in a specific way, then you are forced to learn that at the same time as you are learning the technology. Learning just vue on the other hand, is much easier when you can retrofit your existing knowledge into it. Then worry about the 'proper way' later when you have made your first few apps. I already have boatloads of knowledge, and whilst it may not be '2016', it's been good enough for the past 5 years.

React on the other hand, whilst it gets described as 'just the view', but I haven't seen a single tutorial that uses anything other than React/Redux to drive it.

To even get started in React, you need a babel, npm, gulp or webpack, node and a data-store of your choice. On top of this, any of the tutorials you can find from a full-stack perspective get made obsolete within months. This is javascript fatigue, all you have to do is look at this recent article.

https://www.fullstackreact.com/articles/react-tutorial-cloni...

It makes me wonder how many 'npm install' developers actually understand what is happening under the hood. This is not worse than the DOM ignorance that jQuery causes IMHO.

[ng12]

> To even get started in React, you need a babel, npm, gulp or webpack, node and a data-store of your choice

This is patently not true. You don't need any of that to make a React app -- you can just download the min.js files and get coding. React is perfectly capable of handling it's own state management and webpack/babel/npm are just to make your life easy. The problem is people follow full-stack, real-world tutorials like the one you linked without first just learning React.

[joshmanders]

> React on the other hand, whilst it gets described as 'just the view', but I haven't seen a single tutorial that uses anything other than React/Redux to drive it.

As a former Angular dev gone React, I've been able to accomplish 90% of what I could do in Angular, using React, React Router and Fetch API.

> To even get started in React, you need a babel, npm, gulp or webpack, node and a data-store of your choice.

Create React App allow you to forget about that stuff and just worry about your app. Same with Next by Zeit, and there are plenty of other things including a couple of CDN backed script tags you can throw on any html page and start using React right away to get started.

> On top of this, any of the tutorials you can find from a full-stack perspective get made obsolete within months.

That's because all these boilerplates or tutorials are pushing a style of developing React apps in which that specific person finds the best way.

> This is javascript fatigue, all you have to do is look at this recent article.

JavaScript fatigue is result of lacking knowledge of the basis of the JavaScript language and feeling you need to use the next greatest shiny framework and misunderstood boilerplate to "get up and running quickly" with said new shiny without a grasp of the tools used causing them to break and you not knowing how to fix it.

React uses JavaScript that everyone should know and be able to apply to anything else to do stuff.

You're not extending a special snowflake "class" system that requires you to do things drastically different from previous "class extending libs"

Because of this, tools like Inferno and Preact can prosper and allow users to literally swap out using React for Preact in production just by setting an alias in Webpack.

There's no special snowflake syndrome, JSX is just a syntax ontop of JavaScript to make it feel like we're writing HTML (with a couple caveats), but you don't need to use JSX. You can accomplish the same thing writing React.creatElement calls, as it's just props all the way down.

JSX is also compiled at build time, and not at runtime. You may think this is a problem, but lets be perfectly honest, most people already use tools like SASS/LESS and have a build step in their workflow already, adding another one isn't complicated.

[spion]

Try looking for react + mobx tutorials.