[kmeade]

FDR's Japanese Concentration Camps? FDR's?

That's a blatant attempt to simplify a historical event and manipulate the modern reader.

Please spare me another rehash of how mean we became during the GOD-DAMN SECOND WORLD WAR, when our country and culture were under REAL threat. Please spend that energy examining our modern forms of prejudice and crazy fearfulness.

Also -- Why does no one ever want to rehash the post-war US-Japan relationship? In just a few years we transitioned from vicious, no-holds-barred warfare to a cordial relationship that became delightfully friendly. It's an amazingly positive story that belies the sort of institutionalized racism that some people feel the need to believe in.

[sushid]

Yes, FDR's Japanese Internment (aka Concentration) camps. Yes, really, FDR's.

If you give FDR credit for things like the New Deal (which were of course advocated by him but passed by the Congress), give him a bit of credit for his executive orders.

> [The internment of Japanese Americans] were ordered by President Franklin D. Roosevelt shortly after Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[0]

> Executive Order 9066 was a United States presidential executive order signed and issued during World War II by the United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt on February 19, 1942. This order authorized the Secretary of War to prescribe certain areas as military zones, clearing the way for the deportation of Japanese Americans and Italian-Americans to internment camps. [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9066

[kmeade]

Saying "FDR's ... Camps" is like saying "Harry Truman's Victory over Hitler" or "Ronald Reagan's Space Shuttle." Again, it is an extreme simplification and an attempt to manipulate the reader into associating the act with the individual.

I'm amazed that many (presumably young) people want to wallow in this crap, apparently feeling superior to people who have been dead for decades. You have no reason to feel superior to the generation (and the individuals) who sacrificed so much to confront and defeat Fascism. Quite the opposite. Look around yourself.

[sushid]

That's interesting because we learn to associate positive policies and refer to them as FDR's New Deal (bills passed by Congress/signed by FDR), JFK's Peace Corp, Nixon's EPA, etc.

It's true that these policies are not made by one individual. But when we're crediting the presidents who merely signed bills passed by the Congress, should we not at least be give the same weight when they sign an executive order?

And I'm amazing that you're here generalizing what "presumably young people" do/think. It's not a matter of trying to feel superior.

Presidents are not good or bad, but rather, commit an array of decisions that lie in the spectrum. The decision to intern innocent US citizens (further regrettably by abusing data handed over by the US Census), unfortunately, lies in the spectrum of bad.

To only revere his positive actions and downplay the bad decisions made during his presidency (the Judicial Procedures Reform Bill of 1937 is another one) would be doing disservice to those interested in learning about US history (or history for that matter).

[kmeade]

Thank-you for your replies and patience with me. (really)

"we learn to associate..." is a bit of a sad phrase. What we have done is experience a great deal of sloppy or propagandized reporting.

FDR's New Deal is a bit of an exception because, in addition to a set of programs, I believe it was purposely coined as a campaign slogan -- as was LBJ's New Society. When the verbiage was specifically created by someone in association with their own efforts it seems reasonable to include the name if it suits the writer's purpose.

Here's a challenge for your Google skills: Can you find a reference to the title "FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps" anywhere in a historical record? I see plenty of references to the linked article, but nothing older, much less anything from the war or post-war eras.

By the way, I am less bothered by the use here of "Concentration Camps", although I believe that's also propagandistic revisionism. Historically, they were called "Internment Camps." But they were evil and I'm not going defend the camps because they absolutely don't deserve to be defended.

It's ironic to note that photographer Dorothea Lange did much of her work as part of New Deal programs. It would be interesting to hear her opinion on her work being associated with a smearing of FDR.

in/re your amazement -- There's no question that we're talking about what "young people" think. The old people are mostly dead and mostly not commenting on HN. I'm not (or don't intend to be) generalizing about young people as a whole -- I'm generalizing about these Internet discussions, which are frequent and essentially identical.

The near-endless criticism of the way people behaved during those desperate times is graceless and smug. I believe that it IS a matter of trying to feel superior. I think it's impossible for someone born after the War to put all of this into a realistic perspective. We should try to learn, be humble and grateful for the incredible sacrifices of those who went before us.

Having said that, it's certainly legitimate to examine the historical period - to consider the mistakes. What could the US have done to allay fear and preserve security, and also respect the rights of ALL US citizens and residents? That's a big question - that should be approached with respect and seriousness. To start out by blaming FDR for the situation is unproductive and silly.

[sushid]

Thanks for taking your time as well. :)

To be honest, I do understand what you mean. It was a different time (and a time that's difficult for younger people like me to fathom) back then. The US was in a turning point of the century and fear, uncertainty, and doubt affected the decision that led to the internment of Japanese Americans.

I apologize if my criticism is coming off as smug or graceless. I certainly don't intend to, but I do dislike how we in the US tend to gloss over those we've wronged in the past because "times were different." It's fair to say they had their reasons for making those decisions in the past, but also fair to criticize the practice.

As for smearing the legacy of FDR, that is not my goal either. He was clearly an effective president and is consistently ranked as being one of the best US presidents of all time. But all too often we try and frame someone as being categorically good or bad, rather than being somewhere in the middle, which is what most people are.

Trust me, I dislike those who snidely point out MLK's infidelity, Jefferson and Sally Hemings, etc. But we should openly point out these facts and let them be judged as a whole, as a positive influence in US history DESPITE their misgivings, not because they technically didn't have any.

[kmeade]

replying to myself...

I want to make the point clear that I am not defending the Japanese internment. It was certainly an evil act. One of many evil acts committed by nations around the world. That's what war is -- a sequence of evil acts. On some level, we should be ashamed of all of them.

What I object to is the cowardly labeling of the internment camps as "FDR's" This is a propaganda technique. We've seen it recently used very effectively with Obamacare. The reality is that internment was the result of a complex series of events, concerns, and government actions. If you try to associate it with an individual, I will be strongly suspicious of your motivations.

[CamperBob2]

What I object to is the cowardly labeling of the internment camps as "FDR's" This is a propaganda technique.

Read the article. That's who the orders came from.

[kmeade]

I don't get comments like this. You honestly think I didn't read the article?

You are referring to Executive Order 9066 which, incidentally, could not be enforced without subsequent passage of Public Law 503 by Congress. (note: The law was passed unanimously by both the Senate and the House)

We're not talking about something that originated in the FDR White House. It was the result of a long (but fast) government process triggered by the attack at Pearl Harbor. It was a government-wide effort (and certainly a very questionable one.) To label the program as "FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps" is grotesquely partisan.

Thank-you though, because I did go back and re-read the article. I just now realized that "FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps" is a phrase written by the article author, as click bait. Sad.

[tptacek]

You seem to be on tilt about this "attributing Japanese Internment to FDR" thing. That's a controversy that really seems to have originated with you. I'd assume the rest of us are pretty well aware that the USG was broadly culpable for concentration camps.

[kmeade]

So, you're telling me I should calm down. (smile)

Yes. "On tilt" Nice gentle phrase and a sensible comment.

As I noted above - I just realized that I was basically responding to click bait - so mea culpa.

But that doesn't mean my points weren't legitimate :^)

Finally, I wish someone, someday would start a discussion about our post-war relationship with Japan. I mentioned it in my original message. What happened was so cool. I'm not aware of anything like it in modern history. And it can take a bit of the "evil" sting out of the Japanese Internment history, if you want it to.

[tptacek]

I'm pretty casual with the expression "on tilt" because I occasionally play poker. If I managed to express something more than I meant to, I'm sorry for that.

I agree with you that our relationship with Japan after the war is pretty fascinating --- I think you could say something similar about our relationship with Germany! My takeaway from that is that we Americans should have a lot more humility about our own role in the world, because countries can turn on a dime from one pole to the other.

But one obstacle you'll have to pursuing that conversation in this thread is that a lot of people will read it as an attempt to downplay the disgrace of American concentration camps. Since those camps were very recently cited by American politicians as a rational for registering Muslims, it's a hot-button issue.