[j-pb]

> Logic systems don't have "And nothing else will ever be true!".

Uuh. Closed world assumption? Everything that is not true is false. Most logic systems do have this. Prologs (not a logic system I know) cut operator even turns this statement into an operation.

I feel like Rich really gets it wrong this time. His request to support all the abominations that you have ever written and keep them compatible with recent changes, might work if you have people pay for using your library and a company behind it. But doesn't fly if you maintain these things out of goodwill in your anyhow limited spare time.

The best example of this style going horribly wrong are the linux kernel file system modules. Different api versions all in use at the same time by the same code with no clear documentation on what to use when.

It's also ironic that the examples he uses to make his point namely, Unix APIs, Java and HTML, are horrible to work with especially because they either never developed good API's (looking at you unix poll), or they, like browsers, have become so bloated that nobody want to touch them with a ten foot pole. One of the reasons why it takes so long for browser standards to be adopted is that they have to be integrated with all the cruft that is accumulating there for almost three decades now.

"Man browsers are so reliable and bug free and it's great that the new standards like flexbox get widespread adoption quickly, but I just wish the website I made for my dog in 1992 was supported better." -no one ever.

Combinatorial complexity is not your friend.

I'd rather have people throw away stuff in a new major release, maybe give me some time to update like sqlite or python do, and then have me migrate to a new system where they have less maintenance cost and I profit from more consistency and reliability.

I think that Joe Armstrong has a better take on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKXe3HUG2l4

Also even though I'm a fulltime Clojure dev, I would take Elms semantic versioning that is guaranteed through static type analysis anytime over spec's "we probably grew it in a consistent way" handwaving.

[freshhawk]

> His request to support all the abominations that you have ever written and keep them compatible with recent changes, might work if you have people pay for using your library and a company behind it

This is generally his focus, on big professional software. I'm also a Clojure dev and I'm on the other side of the fence on this one as well so sometimes I'm disappointed in the enterprise focus but I knew what I was getting into and it is still worth it. Am I crazy to think that maybe other lisps would have done better if they had demanded less purity?

Same with the examples of Unix APIs, Java and HTML. Sure, they are all bloated and horrible to work with. They are also massively, insanely successful. I think they are great examples because at that scale it's impressive that they work at all.

This is part of the pragmatism that makes Clojure great, they generally stay away from trying to solve the problem of huge projects being unwieldy and ugly and painful and instead they accept it as a given and work on tools to mitigate the problem. For a lot of people backwards compatibility isn't a choice, it's a requirement set in stone. Even though it always causes everyone to pull their hair out in frustration.

One day maybe one of these other research languages or experiments will find an answer to this, and prove that it works at scale. I will celebrate more than most.

[DigitalJack]

The primary advantage of clojure to my mind are the lovely data structures and the interaction with them.

Common Lisp and scheme can implementation them, and through reader macros interact in probably the same ways, but it would always be second or third class.

Second big deal for clojure is the ecosystem.

I'd love a native language like clojure that was driven by a language specification.

[kazinator]

Almost everything is mutable in Common Lisp: lexical variables, objects, global function bindings. Code compiles to native and you can deliver a single binary executable with no dependencies.

[junke]

> Am I crazy to think that maybe other lisps would have done better if they had demanded less purity?

People associate Common Lisp with many different things, but not purity.

[joe-user]

> His request to support all the abominations that you have ever written and keep them compatible with recent changes, might work if you have people pay for using your library and a company behind it. But doesn't fly if you maintain these things out of goodwill in your anyhow limited spare time.

It might actually be less effort to follow his method. You may need to create a new namespace or create a new function, but then you don't need to put out breaking change notices, handle user issues due to breaking changes, etc.

> "Man browsers are so reliable and bug free and it's great that the new standards like flexbox get widespread adoption quickly, but I just wish the website I made for my dog in 1992 was supported better." -no one ever.

It's not about better support for your 1992 website, it's about it still being accessible at all. Perhaps you've never had to deal with a file in a legacy format (ahem, Word) that had value to you, but was unrecognized in newer versions of software, but I can assure you that it's thoroughly frustrating.

> Also even though I'm a fulltime Clojure dev, I would take Elms semantic versioning that is guaranteed through static type analysis anytime over spec's "we probably grew it in a consistent way" handwaving.

An Elm function `foo :: int -> int` that used to increment and now acts as the identity function is merely statically-typed "we probably grew it in a consistent way" hand-waving, which may be worse than the alternative given the amount of trust people put into types.

[pron]

> But doesn't fly if you maintain these things out of goodwill in your anyhow limited spare time.

What percentage of the total software produced and used fits that and should discussions of general good practices address this anomaly? Obviously, if you work outside the normal industry practices, then industry best-practices don't apply to you. I don't think you should take what he says too literally to mean that every line of code you should write must obey this and there are no exceptions.

> that nobody want to touch them with a ten foot pole.

If by nobody you mean almost everyone. Those happen to be the most successful software platforms in history, and most new software outside embedded (with the big exception of Windows technologies, maybe) uses at least one of those platforms to this day.

> One of the reasons why it takes so long for browser standards to be adopted is that they have to be integrated with all the cruft that is accumulating there for almost three decades now.

So what? Look, large software gets rewritten or replaced (i.e. people will use something else) every 20 years on average. If your tools and practices are not meant to be maintained for 20 years, then one of the following must be true 1. they are not meant for large, serious software, 2. you are not aware of the realities of software production and use, or 3. you are aware, but believe that, unlike many who tried before, you will actually succeed in changing them. Given the current reality of software, backward compatibility is just more important to more people than agility.

> Combinatorial complexity is not your friend.

Every additional requirement results in increased the complexity, and backward compatibility is just one more, one that seems necessary for really successful software (especially on the server side).

> "we probably grew it in a consistent way" handwaving.

Why do you think it's handwaving? The spec is the spec, and if you conform with the spec then that's exactly what you want.

[j-pb]

When stating that nobody wants to touch browsers with a ten foot pole, I meant that nobody wants to contribute to browser development unless they are paid very very well.