[ocdtrekkie]

Engaging me in what you believe to be "rational" discussion isn't going to change my posts. Because despite your attempt to ignore addressing the issues I highlight by grouping them together and characterize me as a 'hater', I'm a pretty straight shooter.

If you want to change my commentary, you have to change your employer. Why not ask Larry Page at those company AMAs why Google keeps their contracts with manufacturers (now seen as illegal in most countries) so secret? Why not tell Larry Page you don't want to work at a company that uses political corruption to avoid being subject to the same laws as everyone else? Ask Larry Page to stop getting Google involved in overthrowing world leaders, and otherwise going well outside the reasonable bounds of a tech company. Tell Larry Page you want to work at a company that puts people, not algorithms, in charge of customer service. I mean, you literally now work at a company that's operating in complete defiance of federal law in Russia, as Google is refusing to comply with court orders there. As a long time employee, Ray, you are complicit in all of Google's incredibly terrible behavior, even if you aren't directly responsible for it.

If Google starts behaving itself, those of us following the news will listen and respond accordingly. Just as many have softened their take on Microsoft, as they've started making more consumer-friendly decisions. (Though there's some areas they still have a long way to go as well.)

[cromwellian]

Buying into the weakest conspiracies of Julian Assange is not being a "straight shooter". You took Google to task over their patent pledge and demanded they release all of their patents unconditionally, but give Microsoft a pass on highly trollish and litigious behavior.

You also don't mention that some of the things Google (and Facebook and Twitter) are not complying with concern Russian government attempts to persecute bloggers. Google was also not "compliant" with Beijing's demands for censorship and in 2010, pulled out of the country entirely, giving up billions of dollars in revenue and letting Baidu completely take over.

You say you're not a "hater", but you post almost exclusively on this subject, not just on HN, but on your other social network accounts. My facebook feed is pretty much 100% on bad stuff about Trump these days, and it would be completely accurate to characterize me as a Trump hater.

And for the record, people are pretty vocal internally about fixing product excellence and customer support issues. One of the chief reasons why complaining on HN works, is that so many Googlers care about this issue and are dismayed to see what should be customer support issues on HN. Righting a ship with several billion users is going to take time. Microsoft and Apple has 3+ decades of experience organically growing their consumer support culture.

[ocdtrekkie]

It has nothing to do with Julian Assange. He's revealed... pretty much nothing of substance about Google that wasn't already out there (Heck, Google publicizes a lot of it). But Jared Cohen IS incredibly scary as an individual, not just for his attempts to work with our State department, but his desire to censor speech on the Internet that Google and our government disagree with. The fact that Joshua Wright jumps from Google paycheck to Google paycheck in government while "technically" not being a Google employee, and has managed to successful jump from the Obama administration to the Trump administration, is genuinely amazing.

If your company is going to take a stand against censorship, and is willing to leave a country to do it: Great. But let's not get off topic, and talk about how Google has been found guilty of antitrust, and fined for it. A trivial fine, mind you, Google makes that much in literally seconds, yet Google has refused to pay it, and has since already gotten fined again for noncompliance. And no move on Google releasing manufacturers from the illegal terms they're being held to with respect to the Russian market.

The issue with Google's patents is their hypocrisy. They claim they're against patent litigation, but only actually pledge not to abuse a tiny percentage of their own stockpile. We cannot and should not trust a corporation to not act in it's best interest. While it may not be in Google's interest to patent troll today, neither you nor anyone at Google can rationally say they won't tomorrow. Leadership changes, market positions change, and Google, first and foremost, has to serve it's stockholders. Microsoft doesn't so much get a "pass" on the matter as a stay of execution, because they're chipping away at a criminal operation.

[cromwellian]

You convict Google on hypothetical future patent behavior, but give a pass to Microsoft who is currently engaging in actual bad behavior. And this is not bad behavior in the sense that government bureaucrats decided it, but bad in the sense that the tech community finds it abhorrent. It's a mafia-style shakedown, one in which Microsoft went after Barnes & Noble, a company who is not even a large player in any tech market, for e-reader Android licensing revenues. Chipping away at a criminal operation? Give me a break.

600 million Chinese Android non-OHA smartphones are shipping, millions more in India, lots of evidence you can ship AOSP forked devices, so I don't agree with Europe and Russia's argument. My guess is, if Google just focused on the Pixel as the premier container for their mobile apps, and the rest of the world was AOSP, you'd see Google's services installed by OEMs anyway, because of the sheer popularity of most of them, just as you see on the Web. And Russia could have their Putin-approved Yandex phone, which should make bloggers happy.

[ocdtrekkie]

It's funny that Googlers like to cite China as proof AOSP is really a thing and that competition exists. But the only reason it works is that as you point out: Google exited China. It's impossible to compete with an illegal monopoly, but we can easily see how much better the market works when Google is gone. So Europe and Russia's argument is, AOSP will thrive when Google (or at least, their blatantly illegal contract terms with OEMs) is gone, of which I agree completely. I'm sure Russia would be more than happy if Google left on "moral grounds".

[cromwellian]

Android's lack of Google services in China isn't because Google "exited" (and by "exit", means moved servers to Hong Kong), it's because the great firewall blocks them. If you take a phone purchased in Europe or the US into China, Google Play Services won't work without a VPN.

Do you think the Great Firewall is an example of "how much better the market works"? You know, where BAT (Baidu/Alibaba/Tencent) are the oligarchy who controls everything? Have you tried Baidu's search? It's terrible, even for searching for information on the Chinese mainland web.

Your "see how much better things work?" is that 600 million phones are shipping with worse versions of Android, with worse security, lots of malware/spyware, and government censorship.

I suppose thats a victory for the investors with Baidu stock, and Beijing's thirst to control the flow of information, but it doesn't look like a victory for consumers to me, or an example of "markets working"

[ocdtrekkie]

Having not used phones in China, I won't comment on quality, but at the very least, it does prove the point: The only place Androids not controlled by Google exist in substantial number is where Google is banned. Not exactly a shining argument for your claim Google isn't a huge antitrust problem.