[protomyth]

Its definitely one of the things that shows up when you call about a lot of vendor's software support. I find it rather annoying that a company tells you to buy a specific Linux distribution then pulls exactly what you say.

Thinking about it (maybe because I am watching a update go as I type), what the heck does this say about how we program? I guess in some ways its why I like the idea of pledge. It makes me think better of the programmer because they have put some thought into their program. I'm not sure what I should think when I see SELINUX=disabled as a possible solution.

[dispose13432]

>Thinking about it (maybe because I am watching a update go as I type), what the heck does this say about how we program?

SELinux is not complex because we program in complex ways, but because we don't know the target program.

For example, (again, nothing against Apache but...) if I want to secure Apache, there's no way for me (as a sysadmin) to tell exactly which files, exactly which syscalls, and exactly which libs does it need to function, and there's no way for me to stay on top of it.

And the same applies to any other complicated software. How to I lock down X? Firefox?

Really, the beauty of a "pledge" like system is that the programmer/PM of the code (which he should understand) should know how to lock it down

[nickpsecurity]

You can do that in a SELinux-like system. There's been tools and policy languages for it. Even better, if the language is high-level & declarative, then it can be used to generate security policies on many different OS's and mechanisms instead of just SELinux or pledge.

[protomyth]

Which projects are doing this with SELinux?

[nickpsecurity]

I haven't followed SELinux in a while. I recall Tresys made tools with dialog boxes to make it about as easy as Windows firewalls. A quick Google leads me to Lobster being an example of what I was thinking of:

https://selinuxproject.org/files/2008_selinux_developer_summ...

[protomyth]

Given how fast pledge was able to be put into production, I think it was the right move. I get SELinux can and has (2008) had tools for this, but it really doesn't seem to have caught on.

[nickpsecurity]

SELinux was a demonstrator of Type Enforcement by Mitre. It got put into production because why not. There's simpler schemes out there for MAC even on Linux. I'd have recommended OpenBSD clean-slate something like them.

I do like pledge, though. I promoted API reduction a long time. Even deleting the code in kernel for appliances a la Poly2 project. Only so much can be gained with it, though.