[NSX2]

But that's the thing. My life now sucks because I've spent most of my spare time researching this. And progress has been so slow. Friends have drifted away, etc.

If I give up and sell out, at least I'll have a comfy position at a respectable company where people smarter than me would respect what I have to offer because I have 6 years worth of thinking about the problem on them.

But the startup route ... hell I can't even find any programmers to put a demo together ...

I could make a career out of this "there" ... or just keep fumbling in the dark making teeny tiny progress (if any) while my personal/professional life suffers.

I don't know anymore. That's why I posted this, I guess.

Quite frankly the "75" year old me is saying, "Do what you want, but keep in mind you're going to need good health insurance as you grow older."

[aswanson]

If I give up and sell out, at least I'll have a comfy position at a respectable company where people smarter than me would respect what I have to offer because I have 6 years worth of thinking about the problem on them.

No they won't. You'll be a part of a dispirited bureauacracy, and nobody will care. They probably won't even finish the project.

Your best bet is to get a bunch of young college age programmers to work with you. They are unemployed and are ready to hit it out of the park. If I was in NYC I would hear you out and try to help. Start looking for talent where the people are hungry.

[NSX2]

> our best bet is to get a bunch of young college age > programmers to work with you.

Columbia couldn't seem to care less, and the entire NYU structure has so far gotten ... hold your breath ... 2 resumes. Only one of which was remotely relevant, but not experienced enough to take initiative on this.

And since I'm not a programmer, I don't have the experience to provide guidance in that department.

I don't know why, but NY is not very start-uppity at all. People here fantasize about going to work for the IT dept. of Morgan Stanley or something.

[trevelyan]

Give up. You're six years into a development project that requires programmers but you don't have any programmers. You seem to think that a company will hire you because you have experience - if your work is really that valuable why haven't they hired you already?

Get a job and continue to work on this in your spare time. Fund development and be smart about making what you build as generally-useful as possible (an enabling technology rather than a solution). If the market pans out for this other company, there will be opportunities for you... assuming you executed.

[aggieben]

It strikes me as odd that you've been noodling for 6 years an idea that needs programmers to implement, but you haven't become a programmer yourself in all that time.

Do you have any idea how many "Learn X in 21 Days" books you can read in 6 years? :-)

[epi0Bauqu]

If you have valuable knowledge that no one else has (or can easily get), and you need programmers, why don't you share what you can here and see if anyone wants to join you? Presumably you can share enough to give people an idea of what you are doing?

[NSX2]

If I could find some programmers who won't dismiss my value after I've transferred my insights, I'd gladly do it. But judging from the thinking processes of what I see on posts here ...

Just to give an example, a few days ago a "bored developer" posted a post saying he was looking for good ideas. Whenever I see MBA/Financial-types posting on Hacker News looking for programmers, the response is usually, "Why should I partner with you - what value do you offer since you can't code?"

So I asked a simple question on this post: Suppose I share some ideas with you that you wind up developing. What do you offer in return? I was hoping maybe an arrangement like "I'll code on the weekends for your idea if you share an idea I like enough to pursue" or something. Instead everybody kept downmodding my post; last time I checked it was in the negative something range.

So if I can find people willing to go it on equal terms ...

[SwellJoe]

You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. It doesn't. An idea plus a good execution of it has value. If you can't convince a developer that you bring needed value to the execution of that idea, and you can't pay developers to work on your idea, then you have nothing.

In six years you could have learned to program well enough to build a kickass demo--the fact that you haven't makes it pretty clear to developers that you don't believe in your idea enough to commit your own time to it (other than, apparently, thinking really hard about it)...but you'd be really happy to have someone else commit time to it and share the results with you. Hell, with the quality of modern tools, if you started today, you could have a proof of concept running in a year, even if you've never seen a terminal or a text editor before. Python, Ruby, Perl, and even PHP, make developing simple applications, well, simple.

Sorry if I seem to be dismissing you without knowledge of your idea or your actual work in the field, but this is what you're facing in trying to get someone to write your software for you, for free. This is what you have to overcome, and I hope I've made it clear that the way you are presenting it is not going to do that. What you think you're saying, and what an engineer hears you saying, are apparently two very different things. I suspect you think you're saying, "I've done all of the legwork and research and hard work leading up to actual development, and now I just need a technical person to put these well-researched pieces together." But, an engineer hears, "I've done nothing but have super cool ideas for the past six years, and now I'd like you to implement my vague and over-reaching specifications into a product, for free, and share the results with me."

You can't really blame them for not signing on, right?

[NSX2]

> You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. > It doesn't.

I didn't put much credibility in this line of reasoning before, and now that I found out that major companies are putting millions into just reasearching this idea, I put even less. Crap executed brilliantly is still crap.

> and you can't pay developers to work on your idea

Actually, the money's not the problem. I can raise the money but I'd like to put a demo together as I imagine that would get far better terms. But ultimately if all else fails I'll get the money and hire. My only thought was that I'd prefer to share with a good technical partner that I worked well with than keep a lot and "hire" as you put it.

> In six years you could have learned to program well > enough to build a kickass demo--the fact that you > haven't makes it pretty clear to developers that you > don't believe in your idea enough to commit your own > time to it (other than, apparently, thinking really hard > about it)

In six years I spent most of my personal time single-handedly researching and interacting with something that it's now taking, from what I was told, a starting team of about 15 IBM research guys to just to START looking into. And that part is only half the total idea. They'll never in 10 years get to the second part. When exactly was I supposed to find the time to program on top of this? Not to mention that it wasn't immediately obvious that it would even be feasible. And as for "committing my own time to it" ... I think actively researching it for 6 years is a lot of time to commit to anything, considering I got no financial/academic/professional compensation/recognition.

> ...but you'd be really happy to have someone else commit > time to it and share the results with you.

Share the results with me? So let's see ... I came up with it, spent years researching the feasibility of it, the market is huge, and I have the connections to get financing, and somebody who'd code it would be "sharing the results with me?" Wow. Does it get lonely up there on your pedestal?

You don't have to commit time to it. But that's what startups are about - they're not for everyone, but some people decide, "this is a good thing to commit time to". And they wouldn't be doing it "for me" they'd be doing it for the "results" as you put it, none of which would be possible if I didn't explicity explain what they should be commiting their time to in the first place.

> Hell, with the quality of modern tools, if you started > today, you could have a proof of concept running in a > year

You inspire me! Hell, if I start today, maybe in a year I can learn enough about combustible engines and transmissions to tell my mechanic to shove it.

And in a year I'll be having back surgery. Maybe if I get started today, I can learn enough about the human body and related surgical proceedures to tell my surgeon to go shove it.

Come to think of it, why did I just waste all this money on an Apple computer. I should pocket the money, learn to build my own computer from scratch, and tell Apple to shove it.

Hell, why did I buy these jeans? I should have grown some hemp and made my own pants. That would show Levis!

> in trying to get someone to write your software for you, > for free.

"For me for free" would mean you write it, I keep all the equity and I use the subsequent investment I can get with my personal contacts to pay myself a hefty salary.

I'd imagine there would be some equity exchange and any subsequent investment follow-on would be split, hence it's not "for me" its for themselves.

And since I'm not a programmer and this is not college, it's not "my software" as if though it was a homework assignment or something.

> But, an engineer hears, "I've done nothing but have > super cool ideas for the past six years, and now I'd > like you to implement my vague and over-reaching > specifications into a product, for free, and share the > results with me."

Well, where to start. First, considering all the crap on the internet, I'd say having a really cool idea is a good start. It's better than most people have had so far. As for "my vague and over-reaching specifications" I think you're having a flashback of some bad work experience here. I never gave you any specifications, specific or vague, so I don't know what you're refering to. And I'd imagine it to be a two way street where specifications would be arrived at as a result of communication, continuously, back and forth.

As for the "for free" part, see above. As for the "and share the results with me." part ... well, I'll tell you what. I'll keep my idea and financial contacts to myself, and you can keep all the results you get from not working with me on this idea all to yourself while I keep looking for other people. That way you make all the big bucks all by yourself. Don't spend it all in one place ...

[mixmax]

I've seen you comments here and in other posts, and while I appreciate your posts I think there are two important things you need to learn. Please don't see this as an attack - it isn't. It's meant to be helpful and to get you moving forward.

1) You have to work on your attitude. I've noticed that you tend to look at the negative in a post and respond to it - this thread is a good example. People aren't trying to put you down, they're trying to help. And doing it for free in their sparetime. You should appreciate this. In the things I've been involved in I've been the glue that holds together the biz guys and the developers, so I can see it from both sides of the fence. And most developers don't like personal attacks. The way to handle engineers is to show them that you appreciate their work, are interested in their field, show themm that you have the capabilities and intent to carry through, and show them that they can trust you. Which you don't do by attacking them.

2) An idea isn't worth anything. I know from other threads that you have discussed this point before, but notice how most engineers stick to this point. I've had lots of people wanting to start something with me - and as soon as I hear "I've got a great idea, you just have to do xxxx)" I back away. What I need to hear is "I've done some serious research/business planning/budgetting/talking to customers/whatever and I would like you to be my partner. I basically need to see some footwork, and this needs to include some proof of concept - not a pie in the sky project.

Hope it helps :-)

[tim2]

1) I can have a terrible attitude! Keep in mind though that this can be a great way for some people get things done:)

2) If it's detailed enough, it can be extremely valuable.

[SwellJoe]

I'd first like to say that you've managed to wholly miss my point and turn this into an adversarial discussion. My response was an attempt to help you modify your pitch and understand the failings of how you present and, even perhaps, how you think about, your business idea. I have no desire to argue with you about the merits of your idea, or about why people (engineers or otherwise) do what they do when it comes to startups. I have no interest in your idea, or your business, except as someone who's started two businesses and enjoys talking to others who are starting a business. I'm not the engineer you are looking for and never will be, but I do believe my advice could be useful to you. I am in the category of technologist who has more ideas for businesses than time to execute them, and I'm in the middle of one that I believe very strongly in...no amount of money or persuasion would make me join your cause (or the cause of anyone else--I'm not picking on you).

"Well, where to start. First, considering all the crap on the internet, I'd say having a really cool idea is a good start."

Sure. Problem is, since you can't or won't execute on the idea yourself, you have to convince someone else that your idea is worth more than the dozen ideas they already have brewing. Engineers don't have a shortage of ideas...they have a shortage of time in which to implement those ideas, and sometimes a shortage of patience for the boring crap that surrounds making a business of those ideas. Convince a good engineer that you are capable of managing the boring crap, and have a good idea, and you might get them to sign on.

"As for the "for free" part, see above. As for the "and share the results with me." part ... well, I'll tell you what. I'll keep my idea and financial contacts to myself, and you can keep all the results you get from not working with me on this idea all to yourself while I keep looking for other people. That way you make all the big bucks all by yourself. Don't spend it all in one place ..."

You've got yourself a deal.

[ericb]

I would go to rentacoder.com, if I were you. Why are you so eager to give away equity if it's so valuable? No one is willing to take your idea sight-unseen, but people will do it for real money on rentacoder--if you're willing to put your money where you mouth is.

Imagine I told you I had a secret that would make you 100 MILLION dollars. I'll tell you the secret, but it will cost you $10,000 to learn it. I'm thinking you wouldn't bother. Why? Because the real value of the secret in this kind of asymmetric exchange is only apparent after it has been shared, so the deal never happens. In the back of your head, wouldn't you also be wondering why I didn't use the secret to make myself 100 million and why I'm so concerned with $10,000 if I have a secret worth so much?

I have a folder of over 40 of my ideas I don't have time to get to and so your idea would have to win out over the alternatives, but it can't beat the alternatives for anyone if you never share it.

Perhaps its most valuable as a story when you're older about "the one that got away."

[brianloveswords]

And just why can't you give at least a vague sketch of your idea? Are you afraid us, the humble readers and commenters at Hacker News, will steal your idea when you plainly say that it took you 6 years of concentrated research and that 15 of IBMs top PhDs couldn't even begin to understand what you already know?

[whacked_new]

Since you say you aren't a programmer, then I assume you did consulting under IBM and your proposal is a B2B application revolving around communications, and perhaps some CRM?

If your idea is really good, and you are significantly more knowledgeable about the field, you should be able to at least give a broad picture of what this is about. What field, who are the customers, what expertise is required?

The feedback everybody gave you is really awesome. The community here is one of a kind, but everybody still has their own interest. How would anybody know if they're willing to pitch in until you at least let them know what you want to do?

I've gotten emails from fellow readers who share similar interests. But as of yet, nobody knows what you're doing.

[jyu]

...why can't you find someone to work with?

the excessive examples of sarcasm don't help, and your other comments could be insulting, and offending the people that you're trying to get advice from doesn't give much credence to your cause. (trust me, i would know http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=127717)

[tim2]

> progress has been so slow. Friends have drifted away

Same here....