[Jemmeh]

I wouldn't say that makes them "better", but it's possible to shorten the time needed to learn to program by quite a lot. Though I mean more like 6mo-12 mo for most people if they do it 60+ hours/week with the right mentor to point them in the right direction.

Our current education system isn't always the most efficient way to learn. Skip the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things, make people basically sleep, eat, and code for a few months and it's doable.

[sedachv]

> Our current education system isn't always the most efficient way to learn. Skip the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things, make people basically sleep, eat, and code for a few months and it's doable.

This attitude is the reason why I am strongly in favor of expanding vocational schools and training in the United States and Canada. People who do not actually care about learning or thinking should be discouraged from attending university and wasting the time of other students and faculty.

[huehehue]

I get what you're saying, but don't agree with the way you're generalizing. You make it sound like vocational schools are only good for getting rid of the undesirables, while the real scholars attend proper universities.

Discourse in topics irrelevant to my career doesn't put food on my table (usually). I'd rather graduate from and pay for a shorter, more focused program than spend $50k/year to have topics I once enjoyed ruined by misdirection and absurd coursework I have no control over.

[sedachv]

> You make it sound like vocational schools are only good for getting rid of the undesirables, while the real scholars attend proper universities.

What do you think a university is supposed to be? Of course it is a place for real scholars doing real scholarship. Your attitude is exactly the problem. Stop treating universities as trade schools.

[iamatworknow]

I went to a four-year private liberal arts undergraduate university and majored in math and physics, which may seem foolish to many on HN. I myself thought early on that it was probably a mistake because of all of the "extracurriculars".

But in retrospect, I actually think those extracurriculars were more valuable than the classes I majored in and made me a more well-rounded, empathetic, and socially tolerable individual.

For example, I took a public speaking course that I credit with helping me be able to confidently teach an entire class of introductory physics students when I was in grad school (around 150 people), and currently present in front of my entire company without breaking a sweat (~70).

I learned Canadian history, which allows me to be a better global citizen and more fully understand our relationship with America's largest trade partner.

I learned basic economics which helps me follow the stock market and the way commerce works.

I learned (basic) Japanese, which in its own way is a unique learning experience. There's a reason why when something is confusing people say it "looks like it's written in Chinese," with the implication that it's so crazy to understand that it's impossible (remember, Japanese kanji are just repurposed Chinese characters, so the analogy fits). Tackling that sort of obstacle, even to an elementary level, is very rewarding.

Living in dorms all four years forced me to learn about and how to communicate with people from different lifestyles and cultures, both good and bad.

Yes, a liberal arts university education isn't for everyone. Yes, it's way too expensive (I know I'll be paying off loans for at least the next decade). And yes, it's not the best route to take if you just want to get qualified for a job. But if I'm being frank, a lot of people, especially in the IT and software development crowd, could benefit from being forced to take "the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things," if only just to become better people.

[Jemmeh]

I feel like I got those things from K-12 education. I took French in high school. I took USA and World History. I had an economics class. When I first moved out, I still had to have room mates regardless of school. We had to do presentations in front of the class all throughout school. And I was in public school.

I'm not saying college is bad. It can be a good experience despite it having some cons(like price and time). I'm just saying you can learn to code (and well) in less time if that is the only thing you are focusing on....and there's nothing wrong with that. Education is not just limited to school, and some people have that attitude about it.

[Jemmeh]

> People who do not actually care about learning or thinking

I don't want to waste money in our poorly-ranked, expensive schools where professors aren't even paid enough to live on. I instead utilize the resources available to me online to learn it faster and cheaper, supporting education reform. It's not apathy towards "learning and thinking" to take a more direct path. My goal was to learn to code so I could get a job, I've done it, plenty of people have done it. Do some people bootcamps and suck? Yes. Do some self-taught people suck? Yes. Have I seen people with college degrees suck? Also yes.