Ask HN: I have just turned down my first contract. Am I an idiot?

[hamtaroPhD06]

I'm a new CS graduate and I started looking for a job.

I interviewed at a company in Paris, France, and the day after they proposed to me a "non-negotiable" contract that would have been around 1900 euros/month (40 hours/week).

After reading it I felt that they were not very honest about, paid leaves, bonuses and my exact role in the company.

I turned it down, but now I'm kind of starting to regret it since people are telling me that's the kind of "standard" contracts right now.

What does HN think? If I get offered another similar contract should I take it?

PS: I don't have an immediate money issue, I have some savings and my family is willing to support me.

[DrNuke]

Social skills at play here: send them a new e-mail asking for your exact terms. You have seen the employer lowballing you and you feel trust is severed, but it is gamesmanship. You need to practice and learn this fundamental too, so no fear and no regret.

[gtsteve]

Whether or not that contract is acceptable or not is down to the local market and the cost of living. I guess it depends where you live in Paris but when I was there I found that my cost of living was roughly equal to London, and 1900 EUR/mo would be equal to roughly £20k/mo which is on the very low end of a developer salary. In fact, 20k/mo was a low developer salary a few years ago and perhaps you could only do entry-level testing for £20k/mo now. I feel that even as a new graduate you can get quite a bit more than that.

But if you're happy to take a lower salary in exchange for some other perk then that's OK. I took low salaries to work for start-ups for the first 4 years of my career and that worked out very well for me, as I was given a higher level of responsibility than most companies and I now feel I am further ahead than my peers.

A company should be able to be very specific about what it will offer you. If not, it might be in the early stages and run by inexperienced people, which can be either a good or bad thing depending on your career goals.

If in doubt, negotiate or reject. It sounds like you're in a comfortable position anyway.

[Avalaxy]

£20k/mo which is on the very low end of a developer salary

Ehh, 20K stands for 20000. So you think 20000 GBP per MONTH is low?

[gtsteve]

Oh no, sorry. I meant £20,000 per year is a low salary for a developer in London.

To give you an idea, I haven't hired a developer fresh out of university for under £30,000 for years now.

[yeasayer]

Don't worry, you did the right thing.

1900 euros/month is peanuts. Even considering that you're fresh CS graduate, you're worth more.

Also, the fact that the contract is "non-negotiable" is a huge red flag. This company doesn't respect their employees. Trust me, you don't want to work in the environment like that.

Keep looking for job, the market is huge, you'll definitely find something decent.

[Avalaxy]

> the fact that the contract is "non-negotiable" is a huge red flag

Yes, but also because most employers in the CS field are simply not in the position where they have the negotiating power. As a CS grad you get to pick your employer, not the other way around.

[afoot]

Everything in your post tells me the same thing: Absolutely not.

Honesty is a huge deal in any employment situation. If you feel like that before you even start, the likelihood is that it will only get worse.

If you have no immediate need for the money, take your time and find something that feels right. You'll know it when you do.

[bradknowles]

I lived in Belgium for almost eight years, and my wife and I dealt with a number of people throughout Europe over that time. We learned some rules of thumb that are usually applicable to French people and French speakers, when you are in negotiations with them.

First off, everything can always be renegotiated and brought back on the table, regardless of how many times you think that some issue has been permanently resolved.

So, nothing is ever really finalized there. Even if you get into a situation that has to be taken to court, you can still negotiate anything at any time. When they lock you up and throw away the key, that just changes who you negotiate with. If you think you got a bad deal, you just need to get a lawyer with a better reputation and suddenly the deal gets much better.

Second, everything is all about who you know, and did you go to the right school. If not, then there's really not much hope for you to break through the glass ceiling. Not unless you can find another way to get properly acquainted with the right people who can introduce you to the next set of right people.

Third, the Workers Councils are extremely powerful. Whatever you do, don't get on the wrong side of the workers councils. That means absolutely no overtime allowed, don't take your work home with you, and don't even think about annoying anyone who is on strike. And they will strike at the drop of a hat.

If things do go sideways for you at a job, the Workers Councils are your best friend. Before any company fires anyone or does any layoffs, there are massive documentation requirements the company has to go through, and in the case of layoffs they have to notify the Workers Council at least a year in advance of even beginning to prepare to take any action.

So, in your situation, I would be inclined to go back to them and see if they can sweeten the deal to your liking. Everything should be on the table. You've only seen their first offer so far.

Oh, and the work week over there is 35 hours per week, not 40. Seriously, do not get the Workers Council pissed off at you by working a single minute per week more than the legal amount.

[hamtaroPhD06]

I'm not French (though I studied in France) I think that's why companies think that they can "push" me to sign without negotiation.

For the 35 hours, indeed the contract says that I'll need to work 35 in standard pay, plus 5 hours with 10% bonus.

(They calculated the salary for 40 hours and not 35 ... Which seemed dishonest to me)

[eb0la]

1900 Eur/Month ¿before or after taxes? There is a huge difference (1900 gross will be about 1200-1400/month after taxes).

20k/yr is a average salary for a junir developer in Spain. 30-35k/yr for an experienced one (5+ years). 35-45k for a manager.

The red flag for me is the lack of information about your role in the company. This means peope in HR don't have a clue about what is going on. Probably you'd be outsourced to a client (a sign of the non-negotiable money amount).

[hamtaroPhD06]

1900 and change after taxes.

Indeed it is indeed for another company (client). I would have been dispatched to a French telco operator as a developer/engineer.

[eb0la]

Telcos are very hard places to live today.

16-18 years ago money was flowing in without stop and now it's the oppossite.

I would go to a telco again only if I could work in a big data product.

Telcos have the best dataset available; but they cannot sell it for regulatory reasons. Banks have the second best (where money is spent), but face the same problem.

[hamtaroPhD06]

The position offered to me was not as interesting.

Basically I would have been developing their PHP/JavaEE website where they display news, sport, weather, announcements, etc.. With some interaction stats behind.

[brudgers]

No. And by 'no', I mean statistically speaking, no.

A job hunt is a variation on the dating problem. Here's a popular account: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/16/when-...

[bluelu]

Hi,

We are currently searching for more developers at talkwalker.com in Luxembourg.

If you are interested, please send me your resume to [e-mail] and reference this thread, and if all is fine, I will you invite you for an interview. It would require you to move to Luxembourg though.

[informatimago]

Don't have any regret. If you have any doubt about the contract, IME then even if you take the job, it won't last long (and when I say not long, like less than 2 months).

[wkoszek]

Not sure what you do, but 1900EU/month is more like an internship. For this much, you could go and do the internship at some EU computer center and interact with top-notch people. But don't work for this much. Not sure where you live, but in most EU places you'll have a hard time paying rent and having some savings with this much.

[ilovepho]

Do you guys know anything about the average salaries in Germany, especially Berlin?

[rajacombinator]

What does a Starbucks/McDonald employee make there? 1900/mo seems like a total joke for a skilled job that requires brain usage, I'd go with a barista gig instead.

[factorialboy]

You can make 40-50K per year as a junior developer in NL. FYI.

[ilovepho]

Any idea about the range in Berlin?

[Chos89]

Is that netto amount?

[hamtaroPhD06]

NL ?

[Quatschmann]

I guess Netherlands.

[bbcbasic]

Sounds like exploitation. Slightly above minimum wage.