[Mikeb85]

> so I'm assuming he thinks we can somehow talk retail stores into offending their customers again

How is it offensive? If a Muslim were to wish me a happy Ramadan I'd be cool with it, or if someone of Chinese descent wishes me a happy New Year on their New Year's date, that's ok too. When did people become such wimps that they think a well-wish is an insult?

Do people also get offended when someone says "bless you" after a sneeze?

[daveFNbuck]

> When did people become such wimps that they think a well-wish is an insult?

This whole argument started when some people decided that "happy holidays" was an affront. Stores forcing their non-Christian employees to mention Christmas to their non-Christian customers in every interaction is weird and no one involved likes it.

[yequalsx]

OK. So it's not offensive to you. Is there no one who would be offended by being told "Happy Ramadan"? I think it's clear that some people would be offended.

Walk a mile in their shoes and maybe you'll understand why some people get offended at things you don't get offended at. Is there anything that offends, disgusts you? Is there anything that causes you to react with anger, sadness, fear, or any other such emotion? If so can you imagine someone that would not be similarly offended? Can you imagine that person saying, "Why is Mikeb85 such a goddamned wimp?"

[boona]

>Walk a mile in their shoes and maybe you'll understand why some people get offended at things you don't get offended at.

In the western world we're incredibly tolerant to other people's religion, lifestyles, etc. If someone is intolerant to the point that they get offended from hearing "Merry Christmas", then it's clearly time to re-examine their own lives.

[yequalsx]

I suspect that practically no one has been offended in the U.S. from being told "merry christmas". I suspect that the vast majority of the offense on this issue stems from a certain group of Christians not liking being told "Happy Holidays". There has, to my knowledge, never been a significant number of people who complained about "Merry Christmas". There has been a significant number of people who don't like being told "Happy Holidays".

So while, I'm not offended at being told "Happy Holidays" I don't say to the Christians who don't like it, "Why are you such a wimp"? I understand where they are coming from even though I disagree with the reasons why they are offended. It's OK to recognize that someone is in a tizzy over something that I consider meaningless.

[daveFNbuck]

> In the western world we're incredibly tolerant to other people's religion, lifestyles, etc.

You might need to update that opinion now that the US has elected a man who pledged to roll back LGBT rights and stop Muslims from entering the country.

[boona]

> who pledged to roll back LGBT rights

You mean the man who will likely have a homosexual man (Peter Thiel) lead his transition team.

> stop Muslims from entering the country

I don't agree with this, but I also don't agree with what's going on in countries like France. There has to be a middle ground somewhere. The unfortunate fact is that if you even mention immigration in a less than positive light, you're labeled a racist or a xenophobe. And now the other side has fought back. They've elected someone who gives them at least somewhat of a voice. Had the left not been so aggressive at trying to pin those with a dissenting voice (both on the left and the right really), I suspect we would be in a very different position today.

Trump has flaws, and I take issue with many of his positions, but this anti-gay and racist argument just doesn't hold up. I look forward to the day we can start debating policy again.

[daveFNbuck]

I didn't say that Trump was anti-gay or racist. I'm saying that electing a man who pledged to roll back LGBT rights and stop people of a particular religion from entering the country is evidence that we might not be as incredibly tolerant of other peoples' lifestyles and religions as we previously thought.

Including a gay person on Trump's transition team does not negate campaigning against gay marriage and transgender bathroom use. There being a good explanation for why people are intolerant of Islam does not negate the fact that they're intolerant of that religion.

[mc32]

If someone were move/emigrate to Jordan knowing Jordan their traditions, history and religion and they found that offensive, there is something fundamentally wrong with them moving to Jordan. I'm also sure Christians, Buddhists , Jews, in Jordan understand and are not offended by that either.

[yequalsx]

As far as I can tell almost everyone offended at "Happy Holidays" comes from Christians who prefer to be told "Merry Christmas".

[mc32]

Christians might see if as part of their religious identity, as an atheist it's not part of any religious identity to me, but I find it peculiar that people find that it could be offensive since it does not mean to me Christ Mass [and other non religious or people of other religions presumably would not see it as Christ Mass], but rather a seasonal greeting with historical religious roots --like many things in our lives.

Do we rebrand Halloween because of its pagan _religious_ historical context? Do we say, no no no more quinceaneras, that just promotes more patriarchal hegemony in a community which is characterized by patriarchy?

[yequalsx]

It seems ironic to me that my comment was about recognizing that people do and can get offended by phrases without being a wimp. Now you seem to be saying that Christmas should have been rebranded because that offends some Christians. But that is my point. People can and do get offended by phrases. Let's recognize this. Sometimes the offense is something that warrants change and sometimes not.

I don't think Christians are wimps for not liking "Happy Holidays".

[mc32]

Do you think people in other countries who have other majority religions should say "Happy Holidays" so as not to offend people who might not share their religion?

[Mikeb85]

> Walk a mile in their shoes and maybe you'll understand why some people get offended at things you don't get offended at.

I've walked quite a few miles in various circumstances. I married an immigrant who is dark skinned and Muslim. I'm Christian (albeit nominally). I myself grew up in a culture that's a bit different than WASP culture.

> Is there anything that causes you to react with anger, sadness, fear, or any other such emotion?

Not really, certainly nothing people say. I worked as a waiter for all my university years in fine dining - took plenty of abuse. Mostly from rich white people (keeping in mind I'm also white).

I see people as people, not as categories. Treating people differently than 'normal' is offensive, treating someone with kid gloves is offensive.

As far as words go, the only words that are offensive are those meant to offend. And well wishes aren't meant to offend.

[yequalsx]

It's not true that the only offensive words are those meant to offend. Language can evoke emotions. Sometimes inadvertently a phrase or form of speech can cause visceral reactions in the recipient. I have a hard time believing that there is nothing that a person can say that could cause anger, hurt, pain in you. I don't know you so I'll take your word for it.

[Mikeb85]

You're right. Cultural misunderstandings are a thing. That's why I like to have conversations. Context means a lot. "Fuck off" is often offensive, but not always, depending on tone and context where I live.

Of course someone can say something to hurt me. But only if I know they want to hurt me. It's that knowledge which hurts, which can be conveyed by words, or other means. If someone says something offensive, but maybe the context is ambiguous or something, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume maybe it was misspoken.

I find life is nicer when you assume the best, not the worst.

[yequalsx]

I try to live by assuming the best in the other person. I don't succeed in this as often as I want. Especially when driving.

I wish more people thought the same way you do.

[golergka]

But why is them being offended is your problem?

[yequalsx]

It doesn't by necessity become my problem. A form of speech becomes a problem when sufficiently many people find it a problem. I grew up saying retard to refer to retarded people. I know people who get offended by that word. I understand why they get offended. I don't call them wimps for being offended. I know that speech can incite emotions and as such some speech inevitably becomes considered hateful or distasteful. In the future I imagine developmentally disabled will become an impolite phrase.

Words can cause people react viscerally. I recognize that.