[mwfunk]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/trump-torture-works-ok-folks/a...

A typical quote, and hardly the most disturbing thing he's said on the campaign trail:

""Torture works. OK, folks? You know, I have these guys -- "Torture doesn't work!" -- believe me, it works. And waterboarding is your minor form. Some people say it's not actually torture. Let's assume it is. But they asked me the question, What do you think of waterboarding? Absolutely fine. But we should go much stronger than waterboarding. That's the way I feel. They're chopping off heads. Believe me, we should go much stronger, because our country's in trouble. We're in danger. We have people that want to do really bad things! Remeber the power of weaponry. This isn't 100 years ago where we fight hand to hand combat. This is weapons that are so destructive -- so destructive -- that the world could end. We have to be very strong, we have to be very vigilant, we have to be very tough. Waterboarding is fine, but it's not nearly tough enough, OK?"

From http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/06/politics/donald-trump-torture/:

"...we are playing by rules, but they have no rules. It's very hard to win when that's the case," Trump said, adding that the United States' ban on waterboarding is a sign of weakness. "I think we've become very weak and ineffective. I think that's why we're not beating ISIS. It's that mentality," Trump said, adding that ISIS "must think we are a little bit on the weak side."

He has backpedaled on the issue since then, but the fact that he said this stuff in the first place is disturbing enough.

[tropo]

You may find it disturbing, but mainstream USA is 100% on board with it. They aren't uninformed either; they just have different priorities.

[mwfunk]

I agree that a disturbing percentage of mainstream USA in on board with it, I don't think it's 100% of them though.

Democrats have generally been opposed to torture. That's half the country right there. For the other half of the country, a huge part of the Republican base are Christian voters, who ought to be at the tip of the spear of the fight against torture, but in practice seem to neither explicitly condone nor condemn it. But I'll be charitable and assume that the evangelical segment of the party is steadfast against torture, meaning that at least 2/3s of Republican voters are against torture. That leaves no more than 1/6th of the US population on board with torture. That's still pretty messed up, but I'm trying to be optimistic. :(

[jules]

I don't understand the outrage specifically over torture. Yes, it's terrible, but why is there more outrage over waterboarding than over drone strikes? This makes no sense to me. Would you rather be waterboarded or drone striked?

[gbrs]

I and many other people would rather be dead than tortured. Torturing doesn't actually accomplish anything either. Anyone will say what you want to hear to get the pain to stop. Torture is more about some sick revenge.

[tropo]

The fact that they "will say what you want to hear" places limits on what you can gain from torture, but the limits don't make it impossible to accomplish anything.

The most obvious case is getting a password. (or lock combo or crypto key, or anything else that you can verify) You torture until you get a password that works. Obviously, there should be good reason to believe that the person knows the password.

Another case is where you know many things but not everything. You ask about all that you want to know, including things you already know. The things you already know are the honesty check. Answers to the unknowns are assumed to be dishonest until you start getting correct answers for all the things you already know.

[facetube]

God, it's 2016 and we're discussing whether we should dispense fates worse than death in brazen and barbaric acts of cruelty, to other human beings. What has happened to my country?