[_9MOTHER9HORSE]

> It seems to me that not many people realize just how highly the EU is valued in Germany across the political spectrum. People seem to severely underestimate what sacrifices Germany is willing to make in the context of Brexit to benefit the EU.

The perception of the EU as a German project — or experiment, if you will — was one of the factors leading people to vote for Brexit.

[emp_zealoth]

I believe a lot of countries will show no mercy to UK, not just germany. No one wants to see a lopsided deal struck at the expense of their own.

[gravypod]

Isn't that quite scary for you? I don't think I'd every want to be part of a multinational organization that has unelected rulers, is attempting to build a military, and will give anyone leaving it a hard time.

That's an absurd state to be in and it's already a parody of itself.

[emp_zealoth]

The EU is not giving UK hard time. It is simply no longer willing to go above and beyond to appease them nor should it do so. If UK does not want to take part in responsibilities but would like to keep the benefits EU is not able to allow that. It is a simple fact that there are no satisfactory ways for UK to leave EU and it is not EU fault.

Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments.

I support federalisation of EU. Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody. Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states, UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat, different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection.

Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps

Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past

[gravypod]

>Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments.

"Most", need I say more?

> Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody

"Ok so what we're doing isn't working out but if you give us more money and power I swear it'll work guys! Just trust me and give up your currency, boarders, militaries, and legislative branches and don't worry this isn't sketchy at all"

> Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states

Ah so the EU is now a charity/Robin Hood organization. Not a government? Most government's aren't so selfless. I'd go so far as to say that no government can be as selfless.

> UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat

Criminal City?

> different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection.

That's what happens with all governments. It's not about the public, it's about maintaining power.

> Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps

Would you have found it better for black people living in America during segregation to say "Any talk of "equality" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the government and the kkk and the racist people" or do you think it was right for them to fight to reverse the encroachment of their basic human rights?

I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class.

> Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past

I can't see a single economist predicting a good future for the EU. It all looks doom and gloom from here on out. I'd say that the countries that are the worst off would benifit the most from less trade regulations. Look at what China and India have become. "Super power by 2020" would be a great thing to hear about the eastern block but that will never be the case under EU's thumbs

[emp_zealoth]

>I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class.

What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can just sidestep the parliament

Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights protected

Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK

Everywhere there is doom and gloom, not just EU - the current financial system will collapse under the unbearable debt that is created ever quicker.

And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you.

Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...

[gravypod]

> What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can just sidestep the parliament

I'm not British so I've done nothing but what I see as an outsider is a parliament that feels it can entirely sidestep the wills of the public.

> Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights protected

We'll I'd assume it's to avoid foreign control over their domestic affairs. I don't think any country should be subject to the moral judgement of other nations and I would like to point out that the UK offers some of the best humanitarian protection to it's people. I'd call this point a bit of a non sequitur.

For instance, let's say I'm rich and I'm investing in a set of manufacturing companies. If I want to pull all of my money out of foreign markets and I state by pulling money from my off-shore cookie factories does this mean I hate cookies as a product? I don't necessarily feel that is the case especially if I still have investments in, or have future plans to invest in, domestic cookie production.

> Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK

I've never head of this but I'd chalk this up as a job for Interpol if it's a set of people engaging in money laundering and tax evasion. This is again a non sequitur as every country has this. Switzerland, France, and other EU countries are if anything more guilty of this then the UK.

(Yes I know Switzerland isn't technically an EU country but it was a founding member of the EFTA so I'm counting it as they are still subject to trade sanctions that have never been levied from my understanding)

> And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you.

You have a lot to offer. You're main point of attraction is different cultural backgrounds and different legal precedents. Many eastern block countries have the perfect storm of intelligent people, good universities, and a strong set of natural resource that they could turn from shabby to economic powerhouses overnight if they where allowed to engage in some practices that haven't been monopolized by the EU. One such example was the British fishing industry. [0]

> Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...

I don't feel that I'm bitching and moaning. I feel that I'm presenting my opinions on the topic. I'm going to have to pick this apart bit by bit because there's a lot crammed into this one section.

> You bitch and moan about how EU is evil

I don't think it's evil. I've never said that and I don't think I ever will say that. It's the same way I've never said the Mafia was evil. I don't agree with a lot of the things that both the Mafia and the EU engage in but can see exactly why they have done these actions and their arguments for why these things are acceptable.

One such example is intimidation of people leaving the group -- the topic that started this discussion You made it a point to say:

> taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer

I find it very odd, and would never want to participate in a group, that would feel the need to intimidate people leaving it. For instance here in the States if one of these United States didn't want to be part of the union anymore I'd feel perfectly fine with putting it up to a vote for the people in that state. That's perfectly fine for me. I'd also be against any state attempting to "get back at them" or "teach them a lesson for going against the group". That's just bullying and I wouldn't expect it from anyone of polite company; that is behavior of children at play in an elementary school.

The Mafia also made attempts to intimidate people who left their ranks. Now I understand it from a Mafia perspective as a Mafia is meant to be run as a corporation. It's not for the benefit of the public but for the benefit of Mafia's stake holders. For them, intimidation is a form of self-preservation in an attempt of it's members to do the best for themselves, not to go against the will of the public.

What shocks me the most is that people are okay with hostile intimidation from the EU [1] but not from the Mafia when I feel it is more justified for a Mafia to do this then a government.

A government is meant to services as a way for regulating the people. If the people aren't being regulated fairly then the government should either change to shape themselves in the image of the public's morals or be removed from their place as the model of governance for the public. Now I've never seen this happen without violent kicking and screaming, as we are seeing here with the EU.

I don't support what the EU because it is a vengeful organization that want's it's fingers in all of the pies around the world. Not for the benefit of humanity, but instead for the benefit of a well segregated ruling class that looks down at many of you as mere peons.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/07/europe...

[cmurf]

Umm? The United States of America? Originally two and a half of three branches of government were indirectly elected. Today it's two of three. That half was the U.S. Senate, who ascended by state legislatures, not voted on. And today still federal judges are not elected, and the presidency is indirectly elected via the Electoral College. What matters is the accountability, not the unelected aspect. The U.S. is increasingly more centralized as history goes on, it used to be more things were left up to the states, i.e. federalism, a.k.a. a multinational organization.

[gravypod]

Just because my country does it doesn't mean I agree with it. I feel that the public should have a streamlined voting process for making their opinions heard on ever government related matter