[pvaldes]

In a totally neuter tone. Why do you identify vegan + pills with "healthy diet" and omnivorous with "unhealthy diet"? A diet that leads to nerve damage unless you add suplements to avoid it, do not sounds to me as "healthy" by definition.

Lets say that "vegans live longer". This is our null hypothesis. Is the percentage of pure vegans among the longest living people in the world significatively higher?

Jeanne Calment: Smoker. Some alcohol. Active. Diet rich in olive oil and lots of chocolate. 122 Yo.

Susannah Mushatt Jones. Sleeping a lot and eating bacon each day. 116 Yo

Jiroemon Kimura. Favourite food, pickled mackerels. 116 Yo

Christian Mortensen. Moderated smoker, not alcohol, active, diet with a lot of potatoes and vegetables. Some meat. 115 Yo.

Emiliano Mercado: Eating corn and codfish each day. 115 Yo.

...

As a footnote, I'll only buy a book titled "I will show you how to live forever" or so, if it was written by an author 100 years old at least.

[PerfectElement]

I think you are trying to draw a scientific conclusion from extremely rare anecdotes.

I would look at the adventists health[1] studies or the Blue Zones[2] for longevity data associated to diet and lifestyle.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies [2]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

[pvaldes]

Not, In fact I'm trying to start some critic discussion.

If somebody claims that a vegan diet is healthier and better, I would expect some facts that support that claim at least. Do you know somebody that became centenary following a strict vegan diet? I think that we can discard directly all historical data of "vegan" people living before 1945 or so, because some vitamins weren't still industrially synthesized. This people either faked their veganism or were really very ill. History after 1945 is relatively well documented; thus should be possible to find inspiring stories about actual vegan people living until 100 Yo.

On the other hand, reaching 100 years with a mediterranean diet or a Japanese diet based in marine food has been proved as uncommon, but perfectly possible, with dozens of cases reported at least.

[feider]

I'm genuinely interested in this topic. I'm not saying that vegan diet is the best diet out there, but what I've read so far it really seems to be a much healthier alternative than the "western default".

Some interesting studies about vegan diet and it's impact on health:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2007.270/full http://www.bmj.com/content/293/6560/1468 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/1097-0142(1989080...

All these studies contain findings that support the idea of vegan diet being one of the healthiest option: vegans tend to have lower BMI, blood pressure and reduced (prostate) cancer rate.

[pvaldes]

I'll take a look later...

[PerfectElement]

> If somebody claims that a vegan diet is healthier and better, I would expect some facts that support that claim at least.

The links I provided show studies that support that claim. If you are interested in more, please visit nutritionfacts.org.

> Do you know somebody that became centenary following a strict vegan diet?

Google Dr. Ellsworth Wareham. 101 old, vegan for the last 50 years, retired surgeon who worked until age 95 and is still very active. I'm sure there are others, but again, this alone doesn't prove anything when it comes to which diet is healthier.

Since a very tiny percentage the world is vegan, of course you will find more centenarians who are not vegan, that's why you need to look at studies that control for this and other factors.

> This people either faked their veganism or were really very ill.

If you are thinking about b12, which is the only supplement most vegans today are advised to take, keep in mind that this vitamin is produced by bacteria. Before we washed our foods and lived in sterile environments, b12 was not a problem.

Abstinence from animal products dates as far back as Pythagoras with his Pythagorean diet, at least.

> On the other hand, reaching 100 years with a mediterranean diet or a Japanese diet based in marine food has been proved as uncommon, but perfectly possible, with dozens of cases reported at least.

The Okinawans, whose life expectancy was among the highest in the world, ate significantly less fish than the rest of Japan. Their staple was sweet potatoes (69% of their calories)[1].

[1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

[pvaldes]

> this alone doesn't prove anything

It proves that it is possible. Is a lot in my opinion.

> The links I provided show studies that support that claim

Okinawans aren't vegan people. They eat fish or cephalopods 3 days a week on average, that is less that other Japanese people, but more than a lot of europeans. They eat more pork than average japanese. Its diet includes potatoes, cucumbers, tea, relatively few rice, some meat, all parts of pork, squids, octopus, shellfish, echinoderms, poultry and eggs. As much other lactose intolerant Asian people, they don't use dairy products but this is not for ideological reasons.

In sum, this is not a vegan style life, is an omnivorous low fat content diet combined with a lot of exercise and frequent exposure to cold temperatures.

Many people living in blue zones have several things in common. They are located in coastal areas or next. They exercise moderate but regularly, and avoid stress. Eat small portions and low fat content diets but including both animals and vegetables, and a lot of sea food. They are omnivorous with a wide food spectrum, not vegan.

[PerfectElement]

I never claimed Okinawans were vegan, but they eat less animals, specially fish, than the rest of Japan. That was a counter argument to your correlation between eating fish and longevity.

Again, for the only long term study on a vegan population, look at the US adventists studies, who live longer than any other population in the US.

[pvaldes]

Hum, nice links... very interesting.

[m_mueller]

I'm a meat eater, but we should acknowledge that iron from red meat, while easy to absorb, has been linked to a higher stomach cancer rate. There may be ways to mitigate it (e.g. yoghurt), but it's AFAIK so far unproven whether it's possible to get rid of that effect.

[pvaldes]

Yes, high intakes of iron, vitamin E and copper are linked with higher probability of developping canker in the digestive system. On the other hand, this risk is not exclusive of meat eaters; copper sulphate is a common treatment against plagues in vegetables. Unless you peel or clean thoroughly your vegetables, your diet could have a lot of copper achieving the same result.