| HN Mirror

"But it wasn't required. It's not like Clapper was being tortured and had to say something. He should have simply shut up and refused to answer. By lying to congress when he didn't have to, he broke the law."

It would help people on your side a lot if you studied how the defense sector & classification rules actually work when trying to get people to work within that in a different way. Clapper's job is to basically do exactly what he was doing since Executive branch and Congress's intelligence committee both authorized it. That's how our system is set up by Congress. There's lots of Americans that were supporting a surveillance state, too. So, he's gotta do the surveillance stuff while keeping it a secret by law.

Now, we get to this interview. Wyden knows about these programs. The Speech and Debate Clause implies he could just tell us himself with probable immunity. Clapper could in theory. Instead of telling us, Wyden asks a guy that legally has to keep it secret from public to deliver classified information to the public on the spot. Clapper's was squirming around trying to figure out how to deal with it. He was obviously lying & didn't want to be there. He simultaneously looks like a piece of shit... which he is that I can tell... with Wyden being the hero despite fact Wyden could've just announced it himself. So, Clapper decided to hide the information.

Now, how to hide the information? You incorrectly determined he should've just stayed silent. That's the right we Americans have. They have additional one if it's a Special Access Program to lie & are expected to in many cases. The reason is saying yes to specific questions then getting silent on others implies that what they're asking is probably true. Clapper's was perfect example because it was worded so a no comment would make them look guilty as hell. Instead, as with other SAP's, he was supposed to have a cover story (probably metadata diversion) to push as their activity while saying no about Wyden's question. That's what Alexander did showing off some great lying skills. It's also what military people did for about every spy plane, middle east strategy, SIGINT advance (esp Ultra)... you name it. Anything considered a major advantage is often in a black program with members required to end an interview immediately so nothing can be inferred or lie with a cover story. The phone numbers and mailing addresses don't even go to the same geographical location.

The real outcome is we need reform of the classification system where they can't mislead Americans like this. Also, to treat both Clapper and Wyden as self-serving liars in this situation. You might also try to consider why it would be risky for Wyden to tell the truth but none for Clapper to be honest. There's definitely risk. Clapper knows Congress might forgive but Executive branch might use Espionage Act in retaliation. Our rules need to change so that people can be honest for huge discrepencies between perception and intelligence work without being nailed to a cross.

"If you're part of government and your actions are outside of what the constitution enumerates, you're breaking the law. If you're a citizen and your actions are outside those forbidden by law, you're not doing anything illegal. It's very clear."

Once again, I recommend some deep study of law in general and regarding national security before talking about what's legal. The Constitution set the baseline. Congress then passes laws which may or may not go with that. Courts with their case law then interpret that in general plus many specific situations. The combination of Constitutional basics, laws Congress passes, and court interpretations (esp Supreme Court) make up the actual law that is enormously more complex & inconsistent than the Constitution. Three of those laws include the National Security Act, Espionage Act, and Patriot Act. They collectively let the intelligence community do about whatever it wants where it even has a special court... Congress outsourced the law to secret judges... to decide what it can do and directors running violations don't get prosecuted. I.C. might even have criminal immunity but I can't remember. Do in practice... Hell, even Congress is not legally allowed to know what they're doing in SAP's where only the Defense-related committees have to be briefed & OK it. In USAP's, it's just the heads of the committees. Congress not only allows this but also puts tens of billions of dollars into such programs annually.

Far as the voters, where's the mass exodus of votes going away from surveillance state supporters toward strong constitutionalists? Didn't happen. They didn't give a shit past another subject to shout about. Right now the majority of them are pushing two candidates that both support surveillance states, have criminal/fraudulent history, and mocked the First Amendment. There was also no push of any significance to arrest all the people on the top involved in this stuff post-Snowden. I think that describes the voter support of this stuff pretty well. They either support it or don't give a shit while putting surveillance & defense supporters in Congress who keep re-authorizing all these Defense laws (esp Patriot & Espionage Acts).

If I thought America would act, I'd say Clapper should've told them the truth after asking for immunity under Speech and Debate Clause. These days I'm thinking he should've lied given what America has done with others' sacrifices. They're just not worth it. I try to avoid getting in such situations so I can do right thing on principle but I doubt I'd help them if they're legally enabling villains all the time or putting all their activist activity into warning about the dangers of clown attacks.