[slantyyz]

When Schiller showed how MS Office worked with the touch bar, I thought it was pretty hilarious.

All of the toolbar buttons and more were already on the main screen. If they had offered a touch screen instead, the user wouldn't have to take his/her eyes off the screen to perform the same functions. And that feature is already available on Windows machines with touch screens.

[coldtea]

>If they had offered a touch screen instead, the user wouldn't have to take his/her eyes off the screen to perform the same functions.

If they had "offered a touch screen instead", the users would have to hold their hand horizontally which would get tiring in about 5 minutes and unbearable after 10.

Not to mention that the on-screen tools were and will still be there anyway if one wants to use them with the traditional, and not challenging to the muscles, mouse and touchpad technology...

[slantyyz]

>> If they had "offered a touch screen instead", the users would have to hold their hand horizontally which would get tiring in about 5 minutes and unbearable after 10.

Why do so many Mac users think the presence of a touch screen all of a sudden means using it full time?

I got a Surface Pro when I was still a predominantly Mac user and I only used the touch screen when appropriate, which was for a fraction of a second every now and then. And it worked great.

Using a touchscreen is definitely better than a touchpad in a lot of scenarios because of the ability to directly manipulate content instead of having to navigate to it.

[coldtea]

>Why do so many Mac users think the presence of a touch screen all of a sudden means using it full time?

Who said full time? Full time it would be unbearable in 1 minute. I said unbearable in 10 minutes with casual use in mind: raising your hand now and then to click this or that button.

[21]

One day Apple will add a touch screen and everybody will be like "this is amazing, how did I live without this until now".

Just like the bigger screen iPhone, which was supposedly a usability disaster because you couldn't reach the whole screen with a single finger.

[coldtea]

>Just like the bigger screen iPhone, which was supposedly a usability disaster because you couldn't reach the whole screen with a single finger.

There's this idea that people will buy everything Apple does, or that people put down things until Apple does them.

First, Apple started from nearly bankrupt in 1997 and so. People clearly didn't just buy what Apple put out. What build Apple's fortune was not some hundreds of millions of "sheep" who magically bought everything Apple put out, but a steady stream of products that increasingly more people bought.

People didn't just buy everything Apple put out. People had to be convinced, from the first post-jobs stuff (Cube, iMac) to start buying them -- increasingly over time. The iPod took years to really take off, for example.

Along with this idea, there's this other idea that Apple 'fans' will put down a feature until Apple releases something that has it.

Those saying that seem to forget that the internet is full of people, and the people who said "the iPhone doesn't need a bigger screen" are not necessarily the ones who bought one after Apple released it.

Apple still sells tens of millions of non-plus iPhones, to people who don't really like the large screen, and even put out the old 4" model again (iPhone SE).

I got a Plus and it's still a usability disaster on that regard. One hand use (which is what I mostly used to do on the smaller models) is pretty much out. But I coped mostly because I appreciate the extra ~50mm camera lens, and for reading stuff while commuting etc (with two hands).

[slantyyz]

>> There's this idea that people will buy everything Apple does, or that people put down things until Apple does them.

Part of the problem is that Apple / Steve Jobs sometimes helped perpetuate this idea.

Some examples:

* Steve Jobs saying video on an iPod type of device was pointless

* Steve Jobs saying that apps were pointless on the iPhone and that the web apps were good enough

* Apple putting out a TV ad emphasizing that the iPhone had the perfect screen size because your finger could go from end to end

Apple dislikers predictably misinterpret this as Apple taking an ideological position when all Apple is really doing is just trying to control the marketing message on what they think really matters with the current release of a particular product.

[BoorishBears]

Maybe it's because I've gone for the biggest phones as daily drivers for a while now (Note series => Nexus 6 => Plus), but 1 hand is a total non-issue for me.

I just shift the phone around in my palm. Even with an oversized Otterbox like case I put it in from time to time I'm able to reach 80% of the screen with my thumb, and I reach around with my other 4 fingers to reach the rest of it.

Pretty similar to how I use/used my Nexus 6 one handed, and it was a little bigger than the Plus

[comex]

Yet when Apple revived the old screen size with the iPhone SE, it sold extremely well.

Some of that is the price, but there's clearly a significant contingent of users who prefer smaller screens.

[slantyyz]

I found it mind boggling that they dropped the older screen size in the first place instead of having 3 screen sizes like they do now.

[BinaryIdiot]

This isn't how you use a touch screen on a laptop. I don't know why you're so insistent on this narrative but it's false. Adding a touch screen doesn't turn it into a tablet, it turns it into a laptop with a touch screen. That's a very important distinction.

You would do well to try one out for a few minutes with a typical workflow of...well, whatever you do on a computer. I thought it was stupid at first and now I miss it when I use my MacBook.

[slantyyz]

After getting a Surface Pro, I would constantly start swiping up and down on my Macbook Pro's screen thinking I could scroll. I still do that on other non-touch laptop screens too.

[coldtea]

>Adding a touch screen doesn't turn it into a tablet, it turns it into a laptop with a touch screen. That's a very important distinction.

That's my point exactly. A laptop with a touch screen is not convenient, unless it can be somehow turned into a tabled (Surface does it IIRC).

>You would do well to try one out for a few minutes with a typical workflow of...well, whatever you do on a computer.

Tried a few times to get a sense of how it would be during this thread. It doesn't work for me at all (at least when sitting on the desk with the laptop). I don't want to raise my heads and hold them to the screen, and I'm not that hot into touching the screen with my fingers either.

[slantyyz]

>> Tried a few times to get a sense of how it would be during this thread.

On a real touchscreen laptop or simulating on a non-touchscreen laptop?

I think it makes a real difference to sit down with an open mind and go through some real use cases on a laptop with a working touchscreen (and the software you'd actually use). You'll realize that you're only using when it is appropriate for only a few seconds at a time, if that. And there will probably be huge time gaps (hours, days even) where you might not use it. But in the odd time when you need it, you're often glad that it's there.

[slantyyz]

I don't get how it can be unbearable in 10 minutes on a laptop. It's not going to be much further away from you than a tablet would be, and people love them their iPads. If the experience was -that- bad, nobody would be buying iPad Pros.

And it's not as though you can't continue to use the keyboard, touchpad and/or mouse.

I'll admit, when the Surface Pro first came out, I mocked the touchscreen too. I thought it would create Gorilla Arm. Then I actually got one and used it for an extended period of time. You don't even notice that you're touching the screen.

[coldtea]

>I don't get how it can be unbearable in 10 minutes on a laptop. It's not going to be much further away from you than a tablet would be, and people love them their iPads. If the experience was -that- bad, nobody would be buying iPad Pros.

It's about the orientation, not the touch screen itself. A tablet you normally hold horizontally or at an angle when you use it.

Now, if it was a detachable screen, like the Surface, that could work, but a laptop screen you have vertical to the keyboard.

[slantyyz]

>> It's about the orientation, not the touch screen itself. A tablet you normally hold horizontally or at an angle when you use it.

I get that it might not be for everyone, but a LOT of keyboard cases have been sold to iPad and iPad Pro users (and many of these cases prop up the iPad screen vertically). And keep in mind that iOS pretty much necessitates use of the touch screen more than Windows 8/10 does. So there must be a LOT of people who would be OK with that mode of use.

With respect to the Surface, I use it with the keyboard attached 99% of the time so it's pretty much vertical all the time. It's not even remotely uncomfortable or tiring in normal use.

[Anasufovic]

Yeah, I feel as if people try to hate touch screens because Apple doesn't think its right. Even though iPad users with keyboards use the interface. It requires a transition period but it becomes second nature after a while.

One of the important things for me with something like the surface is when you finally dock it to use a full setup you don't lose any capability. What happens when you do this with the new mbp? Is a new apple keyboard in the works?

I was considering getting the new mbp this time around thinking this was going to be an enhanced media button bar. But now I'm definitely back on the sidelines

[BinaryIdiot]

> If they had "offered a touch screen instead", the users would have to hold their hand horizontally which would get tiring in about 5 minutes and unbearable after 10.

This is complete nonsense. I used to think this when I used a MacBook full time. I still do but buying a touchscreen PC has worked wonderfully and I never hover my hand long enough to do anything tiring. It's great for doing quick touches or scrolling / zooming in with precision. You wouldn't want to use it for everything because that's not its use case (this isn't a dedicated tablet this is a computer with a touch screen).

[coldtea]

>This is complete nonsense. I used to think this when I used a MacBook full time. I still do but buying a touchscreen PC has worked wonderfully and I never hover my hand long enough to do anything tiring.

I never hover my hand period, so that's one better. Not that hot about touching the screen either...

>It's great for doing quick touches or scrolling / zooming in with precision.

With my hands on the keyboard and my thumbs close to the touchpad, I don't see the appeal of suddenly raising my hands to the screen, especially for general things like zooming, scrolling. It could make sense to manipulate something like an object directly, but to raise hands just for zooming or scrolling?

[slantyyz]

>> With my hands on the keyboard and my thumbs close to the touchpad, I don't see the appeal of suddenly raising my hands to the screen, especially for general things like zooming, scrolling. It could make sense to manipulate something like an object directly, but to raise hands just for zooming or scrolling?

I think I figured it out. You're spoiled by the quality of the Apple touchpads. A few minutes with a crappy Windows touchpad and you'll be wishing you could touch the screen.

FWIW, I hate all touchpads. I just hate Apple touchpads the least.

[coldtea]

>I think I figured it out. You're spoiled by the quality of the Apple touchpads. A few minutes with a crappy Windows touchpad and you'll be wishing you could touch the screen.

Hmm, you might be on to something here. I'm so used to the Mac trackpads, than I almost never use a mouse with them (except for heavy illustrator/photoshop stuff), whereas with my Windows laptops I always use a mouse.

>FWIW, I hate all touchpads. I just hate Apple touchpads the least.

I hate the IBM's/Lenovo's red-nipple thing with the same passion!

[whywhywhywhy]

>If they had "offered a touch screen instead", the users would have to hold their hand horizontally which would get tiring in about 5 minutes and unbearable after 10.

Works fine for iPad users on the sofa.

[microtonal]

Lifting my arm up to the screen every time I want to use something from the toolbar? No thank you. I already hate lifting my hands from the keyboard to use a trackpad.

[slantyyz]

But you don't have to. You can still use keyboard shortcuts.

[majewsky]

Except all of those which use an F-key are broken now. (You might interject that Mac OS itself does not use F-keys in shortcuts, but Linux and Windows apps in VMs do.)

[slantyyz]

Can't you use the Alt key in Windows? Dunno about Linux though.

[microtonal]

Sure, but this is the reason why a touch screen will not work for me on a laptop but the touch bar would (when well-executed).

[iwintermute]

Like esc button?

[fudged71]

Actually, even the Safari Touch Bar demo showed redundant URL bar and nav keys. Sad.