[rtpg]

Considering how most of his current businesses exist thanks to gov't incentives/tax advantages in the domains, there are legitimate criticisms to the way in which his businesses are run.

Though I think it's proof the system works! Offer tax incentives for electric cars, get electric cars. Though it seems like Musk isn't making a super sustainable business just yet....

Solar City is arguably "good solar", but that company hasn't done well enough to hold up on its own, getting the Tesla bailout.

Tesla's made the great push for electrics, and that's awesome.

Also, I imagine there are many people who do _not_ want SpaceX to waste its time sending stuff to Mars, but want it to be a successful sattelite launching company. Meanwhile they're a sattelite launching company that blows stuff up more than average

[biehl]

You mean "Considering how most of his current businesses exist with some subsidies to slightly counter the massive government subsidies to fossile fuel companies and polluting-car externalities" ?

[celticninja]

It's odd how these subsidies are somehow seen as a negative for Tesla, when they are not tesla specific, they apply to all EV regardless of manufacturer, in addition the incumbents have been getting subsidies and bailouts for longer than Tesla Motors has existed and it would take a huge amount of government support for tesla to come even close to say GM in terms of public money received.

[greglindahl]

Not odd at all. Greenpeace attacks Apple for using the same environmentally-unfriendly materials that everyone else uses... because Apple is popular. The subsidy-for-Tesla narrative is driven by folks who either don't like the government, don't think climate change exists, or don't like the hype around Elon/Tesla.

[nickik]

There are just as many people who point Tesla subsidy as proof that "the market" does not produce good outcomes by itself, and that government subsidy was vital for all solar power and EV vehicles.

Bith sides are full of shit.

[celticninja]

I think the reason they are necessary for solar and EV is because non-solar and non-ev have had so many subsidies over the years that it is difficult to compete with them.

[tomp]

> his current businesses exist thanks to gov't incentives/tax advantages in the domains

What do you mean? It's not like the oil/petrol car/traditional space launch industries exist without government subsidies... This is basically just levelling the playing field (and ensuring a better future)!

[rtpg]

sure, like I said I like the system.

Just that some people out there innovate without taking subsidies, and some people would find that to be a "purer" form of success.

[patrickk]

> Considering how most of his current businesses exist thanks to gov't incentives/tax advantages in the domains, there are legitimate criticisms to the way in which his businesses are run.

Many of his Detroit competitors wouldn't exist/would be a shadow of their current selves if it wasn't for a massive bailout in 2008. Why is this never mentioned? If this is how low the bar is set (bailing out large, badly-managed companies) then why shouldn't the government provide incentives for exciting new industries that promise to provide huge wealth and employment in the future?

Furthermore, many of Tesla's non-US competitors are given generous subsidies, e.g. German car makers[1]

> Offer tax incentives for electric cars, get electric cars.

Everyone always mentions this also, what about fossil fuel subsidies (a gigantic, highly-profitable, self sustainable industry)? To tune of $5.3 trillion per year globally[2] You could argue that the loan provided to Tesla (now paid off in full, with interest, ahead of schedule) was just leveling the playing field.

What about the devastating human rights impact of backroom dealings with the likes of Saudi Arabia? What is a few hundred million in subsidies compared to cloak and dagger political dealings with with one of the most repressive, backwards regimes on the planet, simply because they are the main oil producer? [3] The funders/supports of Al Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, provider of most of the 9/11 hijackers, not to mention the same people who spread their twisted branch of Islam in European countries, by refusing to take Syrian refugees from the conflict they fund, instead funding extremism in Europe through Wahhabist mosques [4] [5]. When the solar PV industry and the EV industry become mainstream and cost competitive with fossil fuels (a process well underway [6]), this backwards regime will collapse in on itself through the lack of funding, and will totally cease to matter strategically. So we get a cleaner environment, and less human rights abuses in the world.

> Though it seems like Musk isn't making a super sustainable business just yet....

Using profit as the only measure of a sustainable business is another classic example of Wall Street short term bullshit. Amazon ploughs most/all of it's revenue into expanding it's operations, withholding profit, and they are currently valued at $390bn[7] Granted, it's still possible that Tesla will fail, but even if it does, Tesla will go down in the history books as the company who finally made the car industry get off it's ass and actually take advantage of lithium ion batteries to mass produce attractive electric cars, getting the world off the oil addiction in the process.

> Also, I imagine there are many people who do _not_ want SpaceX to waste its time sending stuff to Mars, but want it to be a successful sattelite launching company. Meanwhile they're a sattelite launching company that blows stuff up more than average

I suppose the solution is to continue to go with the existing, bloated players, with their fat cost-plus contracts, won by ripping off the government with the help of regulatory capture? [8]

In summary, Musk is attempting to disrupt energy, transport and space launch industries, often against competitors who are heavily subsidised and often have government officials in their back pockets, further tilting that playing field. He's trying to fundamentally disrupt these huge, sometimes corrupt industries, and yet people still shit on him for trying. I really, really don't get this attitude. Even if all his companies fail, he forced the competitors to up their game, so in fact he will have succeeded at most of his goals (perhaps not the multi-planetary goal for mankind if SpaceX fails).

[1] http://theconversation.com/factcheck-do-other-countries-subs...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-f...

[3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-05-30/the-untold...

[4] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses...

[5] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/saudi-arabia-...

[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM

[7] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AMZN?ltr=1

[8] http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-spacex-investigation-2...

"Coffman’s congressional district includes United Launch Alliance’s headquarters. Many of the congressmen represent states where ULA has operations."

[forgetsusername]

>simply because they are the main oil producer?

You realize that the US is a net oil exporter now, right? The SA regime will collapse because of many factors.

Your comments read like you believe everyone in the world is corrupt except Elon Musk.

[saiya-jin]

every politician IS corrupt in this world, usually on many layers by many parties at the same time.

I am sure there are few exceptions out there, but as described - few, and exceptions.

[kjdal2001]

Having different priorities than you is not the same as corrupt.

[throwaway1892]

As an European, I sincerly hope that the Saudi regime collapse, for all the BS they are creating here and in the Middle-East.

Still, for Syria, they are not the sole guilty party.

[pyvpx]

the US can't let that happen because the hegemony the dollar has over the world economy would be at a very high risk. Oil is traded in Dollars exclusively. This gives the Dollar some very powerful and unique powers. Saudi Arabia has a strong hold on the OPEC cartel.

[throwaway1892]

If oil stops being so important to the world economy (which might happen, but not right now), this would reduce the risk to the world economy. And as oil loose its importance, the OPEC cartel will weaken (also OPEC do not contain all oil-producing countries).