[joering2]

> The Drug War seems so out of control and Orwellian at this point

A friend of mine, a MBA/PHD fellow who happened to give lectures on one of the most prestige US University, as well as working for very prestige Hedge Fund in NYC, is a great example of this.

In 2007 we was pulled over for a missing stop light. The car was his grandmother and he wasn't aware. As the cop approached him from the right side to look into his glove compartment while he was reaching for registration, the cop noticed a pill on the floor. It happened to be some sort of para-morphine tightly controlled drug that his grandmother used for a pain from her cancer.

No amount of explanation was enough for this cop. Even when his grandma showed up at the police station with bottle of same drug to explain.

Shortly after his life got ruined very quickly. Of course both University and his job found out and he was removed from his duties due to "very strict no drug policies". No amount of explanation was enough. He tried to get another job and over 3 years went from looking jobs at Universities to trying for McDonald waiter, but even they did not want to hire "a druggie".

As he had some savings, it wasn't the worst part. But as he got 6 years parole, being mandatory forced to go to some sort of AA meetings where for 45 minutes a week he had to listen stories of people who couldn't hold a cigarette cause that's how much they got their hands stung by needless, was worst of all nightmares. He even got approached by few drug dealers who happen to often visit those premises to try to recruit new members, and was somewhat glad he had some savings set aside, otherwise he might have gone and really start dealing!

Also he couldn't move out of State until the end of his parole (it would be considered violation) and had to check once a week to the local police station and bring updated drug test, even though he had to pay for those tests from his own pocket. If you think you just come to overcrowded NYC police station and drop a piece of paper at some drop box, then you wrong. Those "visits" usually took about 3-6 hours, depending on how busy they were. Sitting in the line in such a place every week for so long has to be nightmare on its own...

Not to end this tragic story too sad, eventually once his parole ended he moved to his uncle to Alaska and find some peace working on a fish farm. But his drug record will remain in the system for at least next 15 years.

So boys and girls don't "do" drugs....

[dominotw]

This is really a bizarre story. how does someone not know whose car they are driving, how did the pill get out of the bottle and onto to the floor, that too on passengers side. A cop just happened to spot a tiny pill on the floor? how did the university find out about it, do they run criminal records of employees on a regular basis? Why did the judge even convict this person, just a random pill on car floor is enough to convict someone?

[Johnny555]

He was aware it was his grandmother's car, he wasn't aware the brake light was out.

I don't know if you've seen elderly people take pills, but they often have poor eyesight coupled with poor motor skills so losing a pill or two is not surprising. We put my elderly dad's pills in a daily pill holder (one for morning pills, one for evening pills) because he had trouble counting them out himself. Though if a pill is taken on demand, like a painkiller, leaving them in the bottle may be more sensible.

As for how it ended up on the passenger's side, I would hope that if grandma is on narcotic painkillers that she's taking them while she is a passenger, not driving.

As for wether or not someone can be convicted for even one small pill, yes, it is possible... for example:

In NJ: Possessing any amount of a schedule I, II, III, or IV CDS incurs a fine of up to $35,000, at least three (and up to five) years in prison, or both. Possessing any amount of a Schedule V CDS incurs a fine of up to $15,000, up to 18 months in prison, or both. Using or being under the influence of any CDS not for the purpose of treating a sickness or injury (as legally prescribed by a licensed physician) incurs a fine of up to $500.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal...

[r00fus]

A perfectly screwed up law designed to increase arrests without any effort on the part of law enforcement to prove it was legit...

[dominotw]

>Prosecutors only have to show that the accused knew the drugs were present and intended to use or control them.

Curious how they established that.

[Johnny555]

One way is by asking -- if the cop said "Did you know that pill was there", and he says "Yeah, grandma is always dropping pills, I was going to pick them up after I got home".

There, proven that he knew they were present and intended take possession.

It's another example of why you should never talk to the police -- it's not going to help you, and may end up hurting you.

http://www.vice.com/read/law-professor-police-interrogation-...

[dominotw]

wow. Thats just insane that you can just get convicted and get your life ruined just like that. Just pure madness. Prbly happens on daily basis to take a productive member of society and throw him into an abyss. scary stuff.

[andrei_says_]

Which is the goal of the drug war.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/03/23/poli...

[jlarocco]

If the cop saw the pill during a 5 minute traffic stop it's hard to believe the driver didn't see it the entire time he was in the car.

And there were two things going against this guy. First, cops have a lot of incentive to make drug busts and not much incentive to be lenient.

And second, "It's not mine, it's grandma's" would be the first thing I'd expect from somebody who was abusing or selling pills.

[indiv0]

Except in this case the cop would've been actively looking for anything suspicious in the car, while the driver would've been focused on the road most of the time he was in the car.

How often do you look at the passenger's floor as a driver?

As for the excuse, that might be the first thing to expect, but that doesn't automatically make him a liar. The onus is on the law to establish that it's not grandma's. Plus, grandma actually did have a prescription for the narcotic, so even if the excuse might sound shady, it's certainly plausible.

[jlarocco]

To put it in a different perspective, if I were driving around with empty beer cans in my car, I would expect problems if I got pulled over by the police. Nobody in their right mind would accept the "I didn't know it was there" excuse in that case, and I don't see why pills would be any different.

I agree 100% that the truth should have come out in court and that the end result (if true) was ridiculous. All I'm saying is that from the cop's perspective the evidence on the scene looked sketchy and he did his job.

[elif]

I had a tail light out, and had my car taken apart piece by piece because the officer couldn't find the drugs his dog "alerted" to.

The basis of his bringing a dog was simply stereotyping me. In my state there is no probable cause requirement to call in a K-9 unit and have a dog walk around your vehicle. The dog alerted because they are trained to satisfy their handler's suspicions. He didn't find any drugs because there weren't any.

The story sounds bizarre, but it's the policing in our country that is bizarre, not the story.

[Broken_Hippo]

how does someone not know whose car they are driving... As others have said, that wasn't the situation, but I can give an example. Say your car breaks down. You borrow a car - maybe it is your friends, but it is in their parents, grandparents, or spouse's name. Maybe you know the owners name, maybe you only know the first name - but you don't actually know their name.

how did the pill get out of the bottle and onto to the floor, that too on passengers side. A cop just happened to spot a tiny pill on the floor

It is easy for a pill to get on the floor. I've had those blister packs spill out medicine and dropped pills out of a medicine container. And yes, cops do spot things on the floor - especially when there is high contrast, as is likely with a white or light pill and dark carpeting. It wouldn't actually matter if it is a pill - it could have been a small piece of crumpled paper that looked like a pill.

how did the university find out about it, do they run criminal records of employees on a regular basis?

Some of them do run criminal records. He probably needed time off work, both for court and the probation check-ins. They aren't really keen on working around a work schedule. He might have been required by probation to let them know. He might have been required to tell the school because of other laws as well. He might have missed work because of the jail time. In addition, arrest records aren't private.

Why did the judge even convict this person, just a random pill on car floor is enough to convict someone?

Yes, that is enough - even if you drug test as clean. It is assumed that the inside of your car is something you have responsibility over. Though sometimes folks can wind up getting out of this sort of thing, many don't and many take plea deals instead of going to court. Percieving a lack of options and an overworked public defender can do that.

[Joof]

Sounds pretty normal to me. Pills fall everywhere, cops are fairly zealous and the judge may be as well. The law doesn't work on sane principles.

[voxic11]

My nightmare whenever I drive someone else's car, especially if I know they use drugs (even prescription).

[1123581321]

I'm very sorry about your friend, and oppose the DEA, but this is probably something your friend told you to save face if he was wealthy, educated and actually convicted.

Edit: there seems to be some confusion in the replies about my point. This isn't an endorsement of drug laws. We who oppose legal injustice need to have an accurate understanding of how these laws work and what is actually likely to happen in order to be taken seriously, and to prioritize our advocacy for legislation and DoJ rules. I don't believe this story is likely to be true, and that helps me to focus on things that actually happen every day.

[elif]

Your skepticism is not objectively meaningful so i'll offer some of my own useless skepticism. This is probably a belief which helps you sleep at night. I hope you are never forced to confront the reality of our justice system.

[1123581321]

I really appreciate that you're writing this out of concern for people. I am quite concerned about our legal system, probably more than most (like many in this thread who are similarly concerned), and work regularly to improve it.

[nitrogen]

I would consider the story plausible. I have heard stories of elderly ladies being fined for DUI after being given the wrong drug by a malpracticing doctor and causing an accident. The courts are not a forgiving place.

[1123581321]

This I do find plausible. The difference is that the DUI did happen, whereas in the cancer medication case, the pill was not actually taken. There is a legal defense in situations like that called automatism that, for various reasons, is rarely used, even in cases like this. Prejudice against elderly drivers may factor as well. You can read more about automatism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatism_(law)

[rwmj]

Even if he was a heavy pill "junkie", how does ruining his life make things better for anyone?

[mattnewton]

This is why we can't fix the system, we always assume it must be right!

[astral303]

Legal competence is a whole separate skill. Educated doesn't mean he has the wherewithal to spend wealth on good lawyers.

[rhizome]

I am anti-Drug War on Some People Who Use Some Drugs and a unabashed Balko fanboi, but there's a big hole in this story: the basis for an apparent conviction. Didn't he spend any of his savings on a lawyer?

[dimino]

Right? It's not like the cop is Judge Dredd, he gets time in front of a judge...

[JoelBennett]

By chance was your friend non-Caucasian?

[cik2e]

This story is very hard to believe.

The criminal justice system seems very lenient towards certain kinds of individual when it comes to minor quantities of drug possession. If the pedigree that the OP mentions is even half true, this guy should have had the charges dropped with a half decent lawyer.

And the worst case scenario should have been a pre-trial intervention program, which is basically a lenient probation for a year or two, after which the charges go away and during which no criminal record exists.

On the other hand, driving a car and not knowing it's your grandmother's is likely I make any cop think you're a lying sack of shit and or high on said drugs.