[pastProlog]

Maduro was elected president. There's no vote upcoming, just yet another recall referendum, this one which failed to get going in the courts.

Honduras on the other hand had an elected president. Obama bankrolled his generals, who overthrew him in a coup in 2009, and then he continued bankrolling them. Where are the US newspaper headlines about the Honduran dictatorship? The Organization of American States, with the exception of the US, is who was condemning this.

Insofar as Venezuela's oil business doing badly...what country is the the energy business doing well in? Fracking and North Dakotan energy businesses are going bankrupt left and right, which is said to be the fault of Arabian oil flows, but when Venezuela's economy suffers from the same thing it's said to be due to mismanagement or whatever nonsense.

Billionaire Jeff Bezos has his newspaper spin things in the interests of American billionaires, what a shock. The majority of Venezuelans don't give a damn what the yanquis think, they can just look to what they did to Honduras, a real dictatorship, seven years ago, and what they're still doing.

Americans loooove to get up and pontificate in some kind of imperial self-satisfaction. Like how the Osama bin Laden and the mujahideen would overthrow Afghanistan's secular government in the 1980s with America's arms, money and blessing. Kind of hit Americans in the ass when they strung Arabia with military bases, causing a response of a plane flying through the Pentagon from those guys they bankrolled in the 1980s like bin Laden. Blowback from America's imperial pretensions.

[rgbrenner]

Honduras on the other hand had an elected president. Obama bankrolled his generals, who overthrew him in a coup in 2009, and then he continued bankrolling them. Where are the US newspaper headlines about the Honduran dictatorship? The Organization of American States, with the exception of the US, is who was condemning this.

Where did you read this? Wikipedia tells a very different story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9t... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_constitutional_c...

The OAS vote suspending Honduras from the organization was unanimous.. including the US.

The US and Costa Rica also negotiated with Honduras to have Zelaya reinstated (san jose accord).

If the supreme court of Honduras issues an arrest warrant for the president.. in what way is that the fault of the US? Surely you're not suggesting some kind of grand conspiracy involving the US, the Honduras supreme court, Honduras military, multiple OAS members and Costa Rica... all working together to remove the president of Honduras just so that 6 months later they could hold an new election and continue their democracy? That would be a bit crazy.

[gozur88]

Man, I really wish US intelligence agencies were as competent and powerful in real life as they are in conspiracy theories. We would be running the world.

[coliveira]

The other thing that needs to be understood is that Venezuela has decided to become a socialist country. When that happens, it is normal that the GDP decreases as the economy reorganizes itself. But as income is shifted from the rich to the rest of society, most of the population will benefit, even if there is no real GDP growth.

[TheSpiceIsLife]

But as income is shifted from the rich to the rest of society, most of the population will benefit

The Socialist Fairy Tale Ending.

Now, I've never been to Venezuela, but weren't they running out of toilet paper, bread, and butter, earlier this year? Or is that just how the Western Media is spinning it so we all fear Socialism, while on the ground forced asset seizure by the state is paradise realised?

[pavlov]

Do you actually believe that an orderly transition to socialism is what's happening in Venezuela, or are you just presenting that as a theoretical framework for some kind of ideal case?

[coliveira]

This is just an observation of what is going on in Venezuela. They have opted for a socialist economy and this necessarily requires a reordering of the economic forces. If people like it or not is another issue - most certainly the rich people in Venezuela hate it.

[pavlov]

Anyone who has a medical condition in Venezuela probably dislikes this "reordering of economic forces" too. There are nearly no pharmaceuticals. Operating rooms can't function. One in three patients in hospitals end up dead according to the government's own statistics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#2010s

This isn't what socialism is supposed to look like.

As for the rich: the old rich certainly are poorer, and the old middle class seems to be sinking below poverty line by international metrics... But don't forget that there is a new class of rich people in Venezuela, as the leading party's inner circle has accumulated wealth. Even North Korea has its rich people despite its extreme Stalinist interpretation of socialism.

[coliveira]

Most people in Venezuela never had access to pharmaceuticals. And, while any difficulties in health care are deplorable, lack of medical resources is the norm on third world countries. So it is difficult to assess how much of this was due to the regime policies or to the bad shape of the economy. The problem in doing this assessment is that all coverage of Venezuela is ideologically tainted. Any perceived problem in Venezuela is taken as the direct result of socialist policies, when in fact the country was poor longer before Chavez came to power. But for example, few newspapers will talk about the fact that the GDP of Venezuela has almost tripled since socialists came to power.

[pavlov]

Venezuela's closest ideological match Cuba does a much better job of providing healthcare for its citizens, and Cuba doesn't have any oil wealth. Wouldn't that indicate that the problem is with Venezuela's regime specifically?

The GDP has tripled, yet the average citizen's health and purchasing power are worse in the same time period. Where is the money? What kind of socialism are they building when even poor stagnating Cuba manages to look like a positive example?

[bioinformatics]

From his handle (and comment) he/she seems to be Brazilian, a kind of people that see the world with red-coloured lenses and believe the next populist is always the best one.

[gozur88]

If the income is really shifting from the rich to the rest of society, it's kind of hard to explain how Chavez's daughter is worth four billion dollars while ordinary people can't get toilet paper or antibiotics. Seems to me like the cash is actually flowing in the other direction.

[dragonwriter]

There's a pretty hard limit on the benefit that can be achieved that way with no real growth in output, even in the car where redistribution actually proceeds and does so flawlessly. OTOH, I think there's plenty of evidence that Venezuela had largely been governed by a kleptocracy with socialist rhetoric rather than some ideal socialist redistributionist regime.

[coliveira]

Correct. Venezuela is suffering as a result of being an oil-producing country, and the same has happened to similar economies. And saying that Maduro is a dictator is nonsense. First because he is an elected representative, and second because America never cares about supporting dictators, as long as they play nicely according to their interests. For example, right now we had a soft-coup in Brazil and the president-in-office is extremely unpopular, but I hardly hear any complains from the mainstream media.