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by dalke 3548 days ago
Health care also isn't like writing software. I know how to write software. I don't know how to select health care plans, and I when I had my own US company I was always afraid that I had made the wrong choice.

> "Can you imagine your entire hospital and insurance system being in blocks of 800 000"

I now live in Sweden, so I'm not unfamiliar with how single payer works in a country of 9 million people. Do note that it's not so isolated as you think. If I were to travel to France, and fall ill, I am entitled to any medical treatment that a resident would receive. This includes Switzerland, so your statement isn't quite a match to how the system works.

And let me say that it's a big relief to not worry about those details anymore. With our first kid on the way, I didn't have to wonder if my insurance would cover everything, or if I was feeding into the cost machine that has caused the price of giving birth to triple over the last 20 years in the US.

> "Successful countries that do it are tiny"

icebraining pointed out the 63 million people living in the UK with its NHS.

Even in the US, there are about 9 million people in the VA system and 55 million people in the Medicare system. Is there some fundamental reason which explains why Medicare cannot scale by a factor of 6?

> "the guy who snuck across the border illegally gets the exact same healthcare as you"

First, in the US everyone, no matter their immigration status, has the right to emergency care. See http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/590328 for how the ethics are clear. So you end up with pregnant women coming to ER to give birth, which is expensive. And you have people coming to ER for things that could have been handled at a clinic more cheaply, and before any complications might have come up.

To make things more complicated, how does this hypothetical border crosser live in the US without a job? Because if he had a job enough to live on, then either the US employer is paying under the table, or he has a falsely acquired SSN and is paying into Medicare, even if he can't use it. The same works for universal healthcare - the money comes from payroll tax/automatic salary deductions, so even if someone snuck across the border, as long as they have a job they are paying for healthcare.

Second, people visiting (say) France from a country outside Europe are not covered under the French system. They are supposed to pay. Indeed, they do pay. Medical tourism is a thing. People will travel to France for treatment, and they pay for the treatment. It is not free to all comers. When my then-girlfriend visited me in Sweden for a couple of weeks, she needed an emergency root canal. She had to pay, and she did, even though she isn't a dutiful Swedish citizen.

But sure, there are people who are in the country but aren't eligible for health care and can't afford to pay or refuse to pay. There are two options 1) treat them, 2) don't treat them and wait until they appear in the ER once the problem gets more serious. (Option 3 is let them die, but I'm not inhumane enough to want that.)

Which is why the following happened in Spain. "Under a reform that came into place in September 2012, foreigners without residency papers lost their national health cards which allowed them free treatment in local public health clinics." Then in 2015, "Spain's conservative government said ... it would restore free healthcare for illegal immigrants, overturning a controversial decision taken three years ago." - https://www.thelocal.es/20150331/spain-to-restore-free-healt...

And they did it to take the load off of expensive ER care, which even the non-single-payer US does.

1 comments

"Do note that it's not so isolated as you think. If I were to travel to France, and fall ill, I am entitled to any medical treatment that a resident would receive. This includes Switzerland, so your statement isn't quite a match to how the system works."

+ Yes - it is. Your system is absolutely isolated from the French system. The fact you can get coverage is no different from the fact I can get coverage in another province. There is absolutely no operational relationship between French and Swedish healthcare systems.

"Even in the US, there are about 9 million people in the VA system and 55 million people in the Medicare system. Is there some fundamental reason which explains why Medicare cannot scale by a factor of 6?"

Ask yourself the question: would you want a 'EU' level healthcare system - where Greeks, Swedes and Bulgarian were managed by the same entity? Do you grasp why that would not work? Greece is a completely dysfunctional country. How do you think it would fare under the 'same system'? Would Doctors in Greece be granted retirement at age 55, but Swedish Doctors not until 65? Under the same pay? It would never work.

+ It doesn't matter that everyone is entitled to some kind of 'emergency service' - and frankly - I'm not against that. But what if you were to put people who illegally into the country 'last week' - ahead of American citizens who required 'knee surgery' and because of this - American citizens who wanted (and paid for) knee surgery, went from waiting on average 2 weeks, to 18 months. Is this fair, or even moral? It's absurd. If people want to pay for healthcare, they can pay for the service to have it in two weeks.

The question of 'how much medical coverage we give to illegal citizens' is really another question entirely.

You argument is that single payer only works in countries with a small population. How come it manages to work with the British NHS and the US Medicare? Why can't those systems scale up by a factor of 10 to work for the entire US population?

Or, let's agree that it only works for a UK-sized population of 80 million or smaller. That's fine. Even California only has a population of 40 million. Let each state run its own medical system, and some of the smaller states can form a interstate compact to share costs.

I had no idea what you are talking about with knee surgery. I believe that a decade ago the queue for non-emergency knee replacement surgery in the UK could be 18 months, but it's 18 weeks now. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/24/nhs-waiting-...

Nor was delay caused by non-UK people getting priority. A non-resident does not somehow have priority over all citizens. It's the same queue. Unless coincidentally every single non-resident needed immediate knee surgery, while the resident need wasn't so critical, what you describe (17 months added to wait time because non-emergency health care is extended to people not in the health system) cannot happen.

FWIW, in the 1980s, "The median waiting time for an initial consultation was two weeks in the United States and four weeks in Ontario ... The median waiting time for knee replacement from the time surgery was planned was three weeks in the United States and eight weeks in Ontario. ... Overall satisfaction with surgery (85.3 percent of U.S. respondents and 83.5 percent of Ontario respondents were “very or somewhat satisfied”) was not associated with the duration of the wait for surgery" - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607#t=a...

Sure, that was the 1980s, but it shows that single payer even in Canada doesn't intrinsically end up with 18 months of wait time for knee replacement surgery.

Those comparison numbers are biased. They only include people who had knee surgery. In the US, the uninsured, or those who switch jobs only to find out that it's a "preexisting condition" under their new plan, may not be able to afford it. (And yes, the fear of losing coverage keeps some people working at otherwise horrible jobs.)

Their years of extra pain aren't included in the average or maximum queue times.

> "If people want to pay for healthcare, they can pay for the service to have it in two weeks."

Sure. But single payer doesn't require that there cannot be private doctors as well. The UK has private health care in addition to single payer universal health care. Here's a price list for private knee replacement surgery in the UK: http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/conditions-and-treatments/kne...

I already mentioned health tourism where people go to France for surgery that is cheaper than the US. Back when the wait time was long in the UK, the NHS even sent people to France for treatment - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1510522.stm . Here's a price list for private knee replacement surgery in France: http://www.treatmentabroad.com/surgery-abroad/france/surgery... .

As that BBC article points out, "The move follows a European court ruling which broadens the circumstances under which countries can carry out reciprocal treatment. ... Mr Milburn's statement follows a ruling by the European Court of Justice (ECJ) that patients facing "undue delay" in their home countries could seek treatment in other EU states."

Tell me again how the other medical systems in EU are "absolutely isolated from the French system"?