[dkimball]

The defensiveness of some of these comments is unsettling. Inhumane conditions are inhumane no matter where they are, and no matter what the situation is in the society; it is never right to do to one's workers what this article is describing, not even if there's a lot of competition for their jobs.

This is the kind of thing that explains why the United States is not lassiez-faire capitalist anymore; and it emphasizes that we should forswear our addiction to shopping cheap, in favor of buying what is produced in a morally licit fashion, and genuinely punishing corporate leaders over whom the US has jurisdiction and who knowingly go along with this kind of thing. I don't mean sanctions directed at the corporation: I mean punishing the individuals who sign off on or turn a blind eye to this, and I think that a crucial part of any such punishment, in addition to a long prison sentence, is the confiscation of the individual's personal fortune -- since this kind of person (well, almost always "this kind of man") sees money as score, and his objective is to die with a score high enough to leave his initials on the game's attract screen.

I want to emphasize here that this is not partisan United States issue, either. I am a serious Catholic; I vote Republican and like the Tea Party movement; and I know that this kind of thing is wrong, and that you don't have to be a Green, "pro-choice," or a gun-control advocate to recognize it as such.

[roel_v]

Pray tell, what is it exactly about the conditions described in the article that is "inhumane"? I don't see anywhere that people are being forced to work more than 8 hours, on the contrary it clearly states that overtime is optional. Most of the points that are made in the article are standard practice in factories here in Western Europe, like timed bathroom breaks, can't use phones while working etc.

The photos are misleading too, at least the ones with the people sleeping on the assembly line. While unusual in the West, in my (admittedly limited) experience with Asia (and China in particular) it is much more normal and culturally accepted to take a quick nap during breaks, while waiting for a train/bus, .. anywhere where there are a few spare minutes. This article makes it seem like these people are whipped to work until they literally fall asleep on the assembly line.

I'm not saying that there are no cases of abuse of factory workers; I'm pretty sure there are, and I in no way want to defend those. I live in an area where there were documented instances of people being whipped if they didn't cut coal fast enough, as little as 150 years ago, and that is a black spot in our history. However if this article describes the worst factory they could find, and if the situation that is described is the worst possible description of reality, it seems to me that capitalism has given these people something that they could only have wished for 50 years ago.

[weilawei]

Your comment about taking a quick nap is really insightful. I have a little experience with this. From my parents, I acquired the habit of taking small naps. Riding as passenger in a car puts me instantly to sleep (luckily, the same does not apply to driving). I also do this as a general thing--my sleep is more polyphasic and irregular than most people I know. I may be awake at virtually any point in the 24-hour cycle, but not necessarily at the same points each day. Overall, I find that I get about the same amount of sleep, but the odd hours allow me more concentration on work.

[dkimball]

Overtime here is not mandatory, but employers have an obligation to pay a wage suitable to their employees' dignity as fellow human beings -- not necessarily their country's minimum wage; and from the article, it does not sound like 770 RMB/month -- nor even 1500 RMB/month -- are at this level. (Also note the manipulative use of fines and wage witholdings, which no one has commented on as yet on HN.)

These problems, plus 30-40 hours of overtime per week, a frantic pace of work, and no concern for workplace injuries or avoiding sexual harassment (an overused concept in the West, but the idea of keeping managers from exploiting female subordinates is sound), do not add up to acceptable working conditions.

I'm ignoring the article's pro-union orientation (unions are no cure-all, especially since union bosses are easily corrupted); and I'm aware of the cultural habit of taking naps during breaks. I'm also not going to talk about air conditioning, since it was only invented 60-odd years ago; nor will I comment on bucket sponge baths; and I'm sticking to RMB here, since expressing RMB as USD (especially USD at the nominal rate of exchange) is misleading at best.

Is some of this standard practice in the United States? Yes. (I'm not familiar with practices in Western Europe.) Do wrong actions become right because citizens of one's own country are doing them too? No.

[roel_v]

First, I never said that actions that are wrong become right because we do them. What I'm saying is that they are perfectly fine for us (or were fine for us in the period we transitioned to a capitalist system), and I do not see why they wouldn't be for these workers (I'm talking about the no phone, keeping finger nails short, searches while leaving factory etc, not the sexual intimidation - see below).

Secondly, I can't comment on how much money the guy from the article is making or how much purchasing power that represents. However it does seem that he needs to support not only himself, but also his parents, plus save up for a bride price, a practice itself instigated by years of dysfunctional demographic control policies. I would estimate that only the top 20 or so percentiles of youth in their 20's in the West make enough money to support themselves, their parents AND save up for a significant expense. (I'm not very familiar with the current marriage market in China but I've read that in some areas prices of $5000 are being paid. That would represent several years worth of (average) salary. How many people in their 20's in the West do YOU know who can save up 150k in a few years?) So all in all the elevated need for income seems to come from externalities. While unfortunate for this worker, and I sympathize with his hardships, I think no reasonable person will argue that he should be paid according to his 'need' (use of vocabulary of a certain flawed economic system intentional)

Again, I'm not saying that because 'we' (Westerners) have something that that makes it right; but again in this case, it seems like this guy faces the same challenge that many young people in the West face, and while many of us like to complain (myself included), I would not argue that this is imposing 'inhumane conditions' upon us.

Then, about the work safety regulations - fining people for getting hurt is not right. The article does seem though like they had to go out of the way to find an example of such an instance. On top of that, not only the worker was fined, also the management, and the worker was re-hired. Still no excuse for unsafe working conditions, but again if this is the worst example they could find, I'd say they're doing quite OK. We can't really tell from the article if it's really unsafe, and I have a hunch the author would've let us know if he knew just one more way to make it seem like a horrible factory.

Lastly, the sexual harassment. For this, too, there is no excuse; on the other hand, it's quite easy for something to be labeled 'sexual harassment' nowadays. The article only says "Some security guards sexually harass the young women, often using very provocative language." which seems to suggest that in the most extreme cases, they use "very provocative language". Again without details this is hard to judge but it hardly seems to be the daily gang rape that the rest of the article suggests it is.

(Let me be clear, for the record, that no form of sexual harassment, in any place or form, is ever OK. However there are gradations of sexual harassment and my point is that from what we can tell from the article, the worst that happens is in the same class of behavior as mild picking on a colleague - not acceptable, but not the worst either, in the broad moral spectrum).

So in closing (at last...), my original point still stands. If the facts in the article (of which there are few, in between all the rhetoric) are correct, and if these facts are interpreted in context, even when contrasted with so-called 'advanced nations', there seems to be very little that is out of the ordinary (if not up for some improvement, as is the case anywhere), and certainly not as "dehumanizing" or exploitative as the author wants to make us believe.

(sorry for the long ramble :) )

[yic]

First of all, this news article has no facts but full of crap opinions. It is very romantic to have the freedom to say what is right and what is wrong, except you don't personally "live" in the situation and it is not your right to decide what is right for others.

<<<no matter what the situation is in the society; it is never right to do to one's workers what this article is describing, not even if there's a lot of competition for their jobs.>>>

Are you saying people are better off being hungry than working hard for food?

[dkimball]

No, I'm saying that you should never pay your workers less than they need to live on or drive them to exhaustion, even if the market will bear it.