[echelon]

The Atlanta tech scene is blossoming, just like our film industry. We have a couple of incubators, including a few that are funded/supported by Georgia Tech. The cost of living here is super cheap, and there are brilliant and talented people everywhere.

We have satellite offices for tons of major tech companies, so there are traditional tech jobs too. Earning $200k here while the cost of living is so low is phenominal.

You can comfortably live in the city with a roommate and pay only $500-600 rent. Just outside the city, you can get a 1200 sqft apartment for $700.

Our music scene is amazing, and the local food is fantastic.

I try to convince my friends in SF to come out here and give Atlanta a look, but nobody bites. I think this city is an incredible opportunity, especially for an early stage startup that wants to focus on growth prior to investment. The talent is here, the city is amazing, and the rent isn't absurd.

[SwellJoe]

As a counterpoint: My family is in Atlanta (well, just outside of it), and it's probably my least favorite major American city. The traffic is out of control (and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country), McMansions and suburban sprawl are a way of life (my brother-in-law has an hour long commute to his near-downtown office, and keeps an office in his house so he doesn't have to drive down every day), and it feels like everything is at least 30 minutes away by car (and unreachable any other way; even to catch a bus or train you have to drive to a park-and-ride) no matter where you are in the city. Also, there's casual racism on a scale I've not seen in any other major city I can think of.

I grew up nearby, in Greenville, SC, and Atlanta was "The City". But, I've never liked it. Even with family there, I'd never consider it a place I'd want to live (and I really like my family!). I also don't choose to live in SF, but I'd pick it long before Atlanta.

That said, it is a growing city with a ton of opportunity. I know some folks who've moved there from other cities and they almost immediately found good work in their industry of choice (film, where they'd been struggling for years in Austin, having to have a second job in retail just to make ends meet). So, sure, cost of living isn't bad and the economy is definitely booming. But, it's not a nice city, IMHO.

[michaelcampbell]

> and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country)

There are 2 truths I've found, having lived outside Chicago, Manhattan, Atlanta (in 3 different areas), Orlando, Tampa, and Los Angeles:

1. Wherever you are, people think the drivers there are worse than other places.

2. Wherever you are, people think the weather changes more frequently there than other places.

I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically.

As to your point I quoted, the drivers in Orlando are orders of magnitude worse than Atlanta. And I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey or Boston, if you think Atlanta drivers are rude.

Your other points about McMansions and SUB-urban sprawl are spot on. And, everything IS 30 minutes away, and unreachable by mass transit.

re: casual racism... Dunno, maybe. At least it's not overt racism like I've seen in many other places, but I'm guessing that's not what you were getting at.

[SwellJoe]

"There are 2 truths I've found, having lived outside Chicago, Manhattan, Atlanta (in 3 different areas), Orlando, Tampa, and Los Angeles:

1. Wherever you are, people think the drivers there are worse than other places."

I have lived in an RV and traveled full-time for six of the past seven years. I've driven a bus-sized house through more cities than most folks have visited. I feel like I could write a (very boring) book about traffic. I agree that everyone complains about traffic, and everyone does say the same tired old line about the weather changing. But, there are differences in the character of drivers and traffic in various cities.

I will agree with you about Orlando (and Florida, in general); those are some shitty drivers, too. But, Atlanta really takes the cake. I was on the road for seven months in the RV before going to visit my folks for the first time (the first time in the RV, not the first time ever). I got cut off more, and had more people ignore my turn signals, in the hour it took me to drive across Atlanta than I had in the entire seven months prior in dozens of other cities, including Los Angeles (which has surprisingly polite drivers, given its reputation). I really don't get road ragey...except in Atlanta.

I have driven in both Boston and New Jersey. While they are crowded and the drivers (particularly cabs and buses) can be somewhat aggressive, and there are some ridiculous behaviors you wouldn't see in most other places (double-parking delivery trucks, honking and even yelling a lot more than you see in most places) I wouldn't categorize them in the same league of hatefulness as Atlanta drivers. Driving in Atlanta felt downright dangerous because of how aggressive drivers are.

[elif]

Having driven a school bus during rush hour on the connector and down ponce, I can confirm what you're saying.

We had done a 9 day trip across the US and Canada, through mud, ice, through a nasty storm, down mountains with hot brakes and transmission, but no part of that more stressful than the merges in Atlanta.

I also happen to live here, and what you say about aggression (I wouldn't call it hateful) is pretty accurate. Not only do people typically ignore signals, some will close gaps _because_ of your signal. As a result, way too many people (police included) never signal. It's lord of the flies.

[pc86]

> But, there are differences in the character of drivers and traffic in various cities.

I've driven in Manhattan before and it's not that bad. Nobody will let you in but nobody will actively try to prevent you from merging either. You have room or you don't, figure it out. Driving in south Jersey is like driving in a maze of cars who are actively trying to prevent you from changing lanes or getting where you want to go. Between the Crown Vic going 10 under the limit or the WRX going 110, it's a wonder anything lives past the first six months driving in the Cherry Hill area. Orlando was the same way but the places I was in it just wasn't crowded enough to be that much an issue.

[gffrd]

Truth on LA.

They drive hard, but there's a very clear & consistent code/system everyone abides by, drivers are attentive and bewilderingly polite: signal, and—more often than not—someone immediately makes room for you. Makes for stress-free, predictable driving despite being 20 over at all times.

… or maybe that's the norm, but I'm from Seattle where drivers are timid, indecisive, unpredictable, and passive-aggressive.

[0xffff2]

>I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically.

That can't possibly have been a common occurrence in LA... Our weather changes about half a dozen times a year.

[wickawic]

Same with Seattle, which I have heard compared to Groundhog Day

[jtolmar]

People make that joke about Seattle quite a lot during certain seasons.

Seattle has a few months of near-uninterrupted sunshine and a few months of near-uninterrupted drizzle, but the intervening months interpolate by changing the weight of their random switches between the two.

[michaelcampbell]

Haha yes that's fair.

[nostrademons]

Grew up in Boston, moved to the Bay Area, and I think Boston drivers are worse. Sister lives in Houston, and I think that Houston drivers are even worse. At least in most of the country, they won't fire a shotgun at you because you cut them off in traffic.

Also, I don't know anyone in the South Bay (SF is different) who thinks the weather changes more frequently than other places. Here the joke is "Walk outside. It's sunny. It'll be sunny from April until November."

[SwellJoe]

I spent several years in Houston, and the drivers there are polite to a fault (four way stops are hilarious in Houston). But, if you aren't driving at least 10 MPH, 20+ on highways and toll roads, over the speed limit, you're gonna have a bad time. Houston traffic is the most insistently/dangerously fast traffic I've experienced.

There have also been more shootings on the road in Houston than anywhere else I've lived. So, yeah, that seems scary, but it's not something I worried about when I lived there. In the instances where someone got shot that I know of, the person was kinda asking for it (they initiated violence and the person they were beating on happened to have a gun under the seat or in the glove box).

[sremani]

If people in houston shoot at each other for cutting, in a week the whole city will be left with not a single eligible driver. Honestly this hookie non-sense about Texas and shot-guns is not funny anymore.

[Falling3]

>I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically.

I've NEVER lived anywhere anyone has made that joke, ironically or otherwise. That may have to do with the fact that the last 2 places I've lived (Portland, OR and Phoenix, AZ) have very long stretches of monotonous weather. But 2 certainly doesn't seem nearly as true as 1.

[defen]

> I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey or Boston, if you think Atlanta drivers are rude.

I spent the first 24 years of my life in south Jersey and never perceived the drivers as particularly rude, especially compared to Boston ... can I ask where specifically?

[michaelcampbell]

Hoboken, Jersey City, EWR.

I think there is a cultural bias at work here somewhat, too. Wherever you learned to drive seems normal, even if it is way different than other places.

I think this is why Orlando and Atlanta are perceived as the wild west of driving; very few people are FROM there. Everyone brings their driving norms from wherever they learned, and they don't often mix well.

[SwellJoe]

Jersey City was very scary in my motorhome, and I'm unlikely to go back in a big vehicle...but it was because of how dense everything is and how small and busy the roads are. I didn't actually find the drivers all that rude. They were kinda pushy about merging and such, but I didn't feel targeted the way I feel when driving in Atlanta.

That whole region, in general, has nicer people than their reputation would indicate, in my experience. New Yorkers and New Jerseyans (is that the right word?) were all pretty nice and helpful. I spent a month parked in Ridgewood, NJ (it was the closest I could park the RV to NYC for that long), and was struck by how friendly folks were across the whole area, given the reputation for rudeness. Riding the train was fun, asking for directions was rarely problematic, etc. Driving the house around sucked, but the people were fine.

[defen]

Those are all north Jersey :)

[dec0dedab0de]

And I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey

When I was younger my friends and I would drive way more aggressively whenever we saw out of state plates. We thought it would be funny if they went home with horror stories.

[joatmon-snoo]

I've road tripped through Atlanta at least a few times now, and without fail, no matter where the other people in the car are from, Atlanta drivers always inspire misery.

[ethbro]

As someone who's lived in Atlanta for 8 years there's a massive difference in mindset and culture between the city (often referred to as ITP/Inside-the-Perimeter, referencing the ring of I-285 circling the city) and the various suburbs surrounding it. There's no way I'd live OTP by choice, especially with a non-flex, non-remote gig.

Imho, Marietta/Cobb County (NW of Atlanta) and Alpharetta/North Fulton (N of Atlanta) especially tend to have... less than cosmopolitan perspectives. DeKalb (NE & E of Atlanta) can go various ways.

My rebuttal to Atlanta being casually racist is always "Have you lived in the NW/NE?" We're absolutely still racially stratified (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta ), but compared to the other places I've lived and visited you run into a wider variety of people in everyday life. Which is important to me.

Hell, when I was younger I once worked a service gig at a beach restaurant in CT and could count on two hands the number of non-white customers I served the entire summer.

[SwellJoe]

The more I think about it, the more I think it's less about Atlanta being more racist...there's just more opportunity for white people to be shitty and racist because they interact people of color much more often than in most of the other major cities I've lived in. So, I probably should soften my accusation of racism. I still see it, and it is still uncomfortable, but I also have to acknowledge that Atlanta seems to have proven itself to be a great place for black folks to build careers, build businesses, etc. So, race relations may be tense in Atlanta, but it is probably not because the people are inherently more shitty than people everywhere else. And, I also have to acknowledge that some of my favorite cities that are not overtly racist are seemingly racist on a systemic level in ways that I as a white person don't see very clearly; Austin, for example, has a rapidly shrinking black population. That's probably a useful measure of racism, as well.

[ynniv]

Atlanta's on the front lines, and that's a great thing. It's complicated and reveals how bad things are, but it's also the only way things improve.

[ledbettj]

I used to feel the same way you do; I grew up here, moved away, and eventually came back. Atlanta is a much different place now.

I wouldn't choose to live "just outside" of Atlanta either, for all the terrible traffic/commute reasons you mentioned -- I live ITP and a 5 minute walk from a train station with a 10-minute hassle-free commute. Somehow I can survive here as part of a one-car household.

Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon.

[SwellJoe]

"Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon."

It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) not only happens in conversation, but it doesn't elicit gasps or any negative response. To be fair, it's also among the more diverse major cities, with tons of black-owned businesses, and that's awesome. So, it may be the clash of cultures (shitty old poor white southerners surrounded by successful black folks leading to resentment) rather than Atlanta being more racist. But, the south, in general, has such a long history of segregation, red-lining, private clubs that mysteriously have no black members, neighborhoods with no black residents, etc.

So, I'm probably being overly harsh based on surface level stuff. Opportunity is an important part of the power of racism, and Atlanta seems to have shown itself capable of providing opportunity to black folks; at least enough to lead to lots of black folks choosing to live there. Cities like Austin, Portland, San Francisco, etc. may actually be more harmful (or at least less welcoming) to people of color than Atlanta, without any overt signals of racism.

[SnacksOnAPlane]

I would say that, at least in my neighborhood (Midtown), someone saying that would be absolutely shunned. I can't speak for all neighborhoods, but I've lived here for about 30 years and I have never ever heard someone say that in casual conversation.

Yeah, we've got problems, but I would actually point you to our BLM protests as an example of our racial tolerance. They were almost completely nonviolent, well-organized, and incredibly diverse. Atlanta has a "we're all in this together" kind of spirit, at least in my experience. Casual racism is, for the most part, not tolerated.

[chucksmash]

> It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) in conversation doesn't elicit gasps.

Maybe you should find new friends.

I was born in ATL and lived there the first 20 years of my life and then for 18 months after college. I can say unequivocally that I've never been in a situation where it would have been acceptable or "just felt normal" to encounter that.

[ccostes]

> It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) not only happens in conversation, but it doesn't elicit gasps or any negative response.

As a counterexample, I have lived in Atlanta for the past 7 years and never once heard anything like this. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it feels like you're painting the city with an overly broad brush.

[shardinator]

May I ask a very honest and innocent question? Are you African American?

[wil421]

That's such BS. I've lived here most of my life and never had some random person use N* in a conversation. Innuendoes maybe, even then it's usually some grumpy old person and they are flat out ignored.

Look at St. Louis and Baltimore. Much more brutality on both sides and riots. Atlanta isn't the old Atlanta and we don't tolerate that crap.

[SwellJoe]

I haven't spent all that much time in Atlanta (and its suburbs), and I've heard/seen overt racism there. It was shocking enough, to me, that it stood out and has stuck with me. I can't imagine how someone who lives there hasn't experienced it, but I don't know your experience. In my experience, Atlanta is very much a southern city, along with all the good and bad that comes with that.

I'm sure it's getting better over time; most places in the US are. But, it's only been a few years since I last saw someone behaving in an overtly racist manner in Atlanta. I can't imagine it's changed drastically in that time. I'd appreciate if you'd read everything I've written on racism in Atlanta in this thread (and the other child thread). I'm not trying to paint it as a black and white thing, or suggest that Atlanta is the only city that suffers from racism.

[thansharp]

It's probably the only major city in the Southeast, so that could be a factor. Drive an hour north from Atlanta, and you'll see confederate flags in this place. I'm not defending Atl, just rationalizing expectations.

[stouset]

Agreed.

Grew up in the suburbs, hated it. Moved into Atlanta and fell in love. It's perfectly proportioned for cycling. The food everywhere is amazing (I still miss Atlanta's food, now that I'm in SF).

[fma]

I used to live in Decatur and now live in the burbs. Atlanta is diverse and has everything for everyone. Why bicker about it? You want to live in an expensive high rise? We got it. Want to live by a train station and commute to work? We got it. Want a McMansion? We got it. Want to live cheaply? We got it.

People need to stop judging others on how they want to live and pretend theirs is better.

Know why people move to the burbs? It's because most of the schools ITP are shitty, I can buy a bigger and newer house for my family to live comfortably. My small, 1974 home in Decatur is worth almost as much as my new home and the schools are not as good.

I work in Alpharetta, and probably will always work there so my commute is reasonable.

[piptastic]

Agreed.

I have to fly into Atlanta from the West Coast 3-4 times a year and it is also my least favorite major American city.

There are nice places there (Top Golf, Bourbon Bar, tons of good restaurants)... But there are nice places everywhere and they certainly don't make up for Atlanta's other shortcomings. I can't articulate all the reasons for my distaste, but it just looks dirty and depressing. The traffic is horrible, the weather is usually bad. We refer to it as Shitlanta (which is an exaggeration, but not much of one).

[cglace]

Dirty? What parts of Atlanta? One of my favorite things about Atlanta is how green it is. After living on the west coast for awhile it felt amazing to come back and actually see something green.

[piptastic]

Dirty is probably the wrong word... maybe run down? Roads are in poor condition, abandoned warehouses/factories everywhere, it looks like people don't care about the area. Probably nearby the airport, because that's where I fly in and drive out from there. But even inside the city, it doesn't look much better... I still get that same feeling.

[pbz]

ATL is green, has lots of trees, it's beautiful, but the trash on the side of the roads is ridiculous (I'm talking 285, 400, 75, 85) and seems to be getting worse. It's especially bad around the airport; so much for first impressions. If you go outside of ATL (or even inside) the situation improves a lot.

[cglace]

Well yeah, in and around the airport is a pretty horrible area but that seems like an odd way of judging a city. As for the highways I can't really say it is any worse than any other city I have been to.

[pbz]

We all have our standards. If I come to your house and there's trash on the lawn I won't leave with a good impression. For me that shows lack of management / organization. It's not like they can't afford it.

[cloakandswagger]

I can see piles of trash left from former homeless encampments on the side of the highway from my downtown Seattle office, so I guess Seattle is a shitty city too.

[pbz]

Doesn't make the entire city shitty, but it's not excusable either. There are much poorer cities (in relative poor countries) that don't have that problem. Also, the fact that you're defensive about this gives us a clue as to why the problem persists.

[nailer]

Not from the US so don't care either way but IME Atlanta was fine, SF has more human poo than any western city.

[michaelcampbell]

> We refer to it as Shitlanta

clever. Come up with that all on your own?

[piptastic]

I didn't, no, someone in my family came up with it.

And I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, which is fine as a response. It's a strong word, and I'm sure plenty of people love that area. We just emphatically do not.

[matthewmcg]

All true, but it's getting better. Also, there's a huge quality of life difference in Atlanta between living just outside city limits and living in the urban core or one of the adjacent former streetcar suburbs. Not only in terms of traffic and transit options but proximity to entertainment and cultural attractions.

Historically, most of the technology companies in the metro area were located in office parks in the northern suburbs. But momentum seems to be shifting back to in-town locations. When my firm moved to its present location in NW Midtown in 2007, we were the only tenant in our building. Since then, we've been joined by a marketing agency, Uber, Square, Worldpay, and a few others.

[lgleason]

I'm in Atlanta. It's a great place to work for a non-tech corporation, but the startup scene is so so. Most of the "tech" startups fall in to one of two categories. First, ones that will not get traction and are doing something that someone else is already doing or two high tech boiler room operations where they hire a few tech people and an army of sales types to try to sell it. Sadly tech people in Atlanta are second class citizens even today. But there are plenty of "Choose Atlanta" marketing types touting the city.... There is a reason that rents and housing prices are low in ATL.

[zymhan]

I beg to differ. I work for Pindrop. We have a unique product and we're growing steadily, with serious funding to boot.

https://www.pindrop.com/about-pindrop-security/

https://www.pindrop.com/what-we-do/

We're also hiring: http://grnh.se/iwk5m4

[lgleason]

One or two companies out of a city of 5+ million does not make a startup ecosystem.

[zeendo]

It's (a little) more meaningful than your example-free claim.

Your description of the startup scene here is literally the startup scene everywhere.

[lgleason]

Not from what I've observed with Atlanta having been involved deeply in the Atlanta community for a number of years while also being involved in other communities. But everyone is welcome to have their own opinion.

[atlstartup404]

That person obviously has no idea what they are talking about.

[lgleason]

Both myself and others who have been involved in the community share this sentiment. Straight up if you have a startup and want to get funding, getting funding in Atlanta will mean a less favorable term sheet and not as many connections to help you grow your startup.

[zymhan]

Well if I'm playing the devil's advocate, I'd say you're one to talk with a green username.

[metafunctor]

Doing something that someone else is already doing is not necessarily a bad thing.

[chatmasta]

Indeed. It replaces one challenge with another. When you're the first to market, your primary challenge is to prove your business model and product market fit. When you're later to market, your challenge is to build a better product and execute a strategy better than your competitors.

Different teams excel at different challenges.

Personally I'd prefer a market with competitors. That means the market exists.

[verbify]

Yup, it amazes me that WhatsApp, an instant messaging app, was founded in 2010.

[lgleason]

The difference was that WhatsApp was about execution with a small team. The Atlanta way would have been to hire 2 engineers and then a army of marketing people to sell it.

It's a shame because there is a lot of potential, but the leaders concentrate on the marketing of the community instead of actually developing a better community. Lots of cargo culting with incubators etc., but not a lot of large wins. There are pockets of awesome in the town, but Atlanta is more about who you know and your image, not the substance that has made runaway successful tech startups.

[omarchowdhury]

Who you know and your image... so basically every business community?

[lgleason]

There will always be an element of who you know in any community, but Atlanta goes a bit further than the norm to the point of ignoring/devaluing the pieces that are at the soul of successful tech startups.....namely the tech.

[blizkreeg]

Whatsapp was not a "instant messaging" app in the way you put it. It was started specifically to get around high SMS carrier rates in countries around the world, hence their ultra-fast adoption in ROW.

Not trying to nitpick, just pointing out that Whatsapp didn't start in a crowded market. They actually did something unique that made messaging their friends & family way cheaper and easier.

[atlstartup404]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Look up the Atlanta Tech Village and the buildings around it. Atlanta has it's own "Silicon Valley" and the startup / tech industry is pretty booming here.

Atlanta Tech Village http://atlantatechvillage.com/ Venture Atlanta (for up and coming startups to get funded) http://ventureatlanta.org/

Nearby there's companies like BitPay https://bitpay.com/ Terminus http://terminus.com/ SalesLoft https://salesloft.com/ YikYak https://www.yikyak.com/home

[lgleason]

Ah a troll account....but... Atlanta has it's own "Silicon Valley". Sorry, not true. I am VERY aware ATV and the companies surrounding it. Lots of marketing focused products where the teams often have more business/sales/marketing people than actual engineers. In Silicon Valley they automate these things, in Atlanta they throw more bodies at it.

[t4nkd]

This seems to be the thing people ignore, as the Tampa region has a fairly bustling tech scene, and due to proximity with SOCOM at MacDill AFB, more seem to be coming all the time. You could say, "Wow look at all this tech activity, 100 head engineering offices are opening and such-and-such acquisition was so huge, blah blah" but, this is all strictly within the scope of people who are local. I've never met anyone from the Valley area who has come into Tampa and said, "Holy shit you guys are like a tiny Silicon Valley!" -- though sometimes they are somewhat surprised to find out companies like Chase, AmEx, or Neilsen have large engineering offices here.

There's intentionally nothing like Silicon Valley because the Valley has a literal firehose of the most brilliant engineers constantly flowing into it. When Atlanta, or Tampa, ends up with a brilliant engineer with vision and drive, it's mostly out of luck or coincidence.

[jboggan]

Speaking as a native Atlantan who moved to California 4 years for a job in the tech industry: I don't miss it and I wouldn't want to move back, even to leverage a better cost of living. I miss the weather, the environment, the people, the food - but I certainly don't miss the crime. Everyone I knew had some kind of violent crime encounter after living in Atlanta and it wasn't until I moved to the amazing calm of San Francisco / Santa Monica / West L.A. that I realized there are some cities where it isn't a constant companion.

"Murder Kroger" has that nickname for a reason, and the fact that so many Atlantans are used to it is quite telling.

[bendmorris]

Earning $200k most places is pretty nice, but most sources show that in Atlanta almost no one is making that much. The average is less than half that. For most of us, moving to Atlanta would probably coincide with a sharp pay cut. If that wasn't the case, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[lgleason]

You would take a pay cut and there are many in Atlanta who would still complain that you are making too much and be thinking about how they could move your job to a low cost country. I've had conversations with startups "leaders" in Atlanta where they have expressed this sentiment.

[itake]

hey lance! ha

I left ATL for SF last year and I had many similar conversations while I lived there.

ATL Founder > What do you mean you are charging $100/hr? I can pay 5 shitty developers in India for that price.

SF Founder > We are on a pretty tight budget. The best we can offer you is $140k/yr + 0.7% equity.

[lgleason]

yup, seen the same thing!

[atlstartup404]

You are all over this thread shitting on everything Atlanta. Sounds like you just didn't get hired at a place you like and are bitter. That place made the right choice.

[lgleason]

It sounds like this is a throwaway troll account.

[mattnewton]

I'll stick to the valley and just have roommates then.

[wil421]

According to this CNN Money calculator you would only need to make $114k here to match a 200k salary on SF. Even less if you didn't want to live downtown. The housing costs are listed at 75% less than SF!

http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/

[bendmorris]

And according to Glassdoor, average Software Engineer salary in Atlanta is $72k:

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/atlanta-software-engineer...

Neither is very scientific but I don't think it's such an obvious win.

[wil421]

Glassdoor isn't a good reference. For one, the list you linked to looks like a bunch of consultants salaries which is usually lower than average for entry level positions.

I'm only a few years out of school and almost at the 72k level with much room to grow in salary at my current job and grade level.

[zippergz]

Those cost of living things never make sense to me. Housing isn't the only cost in our lives. When I want to buy a car, computer, cell phone, or vacation, they cost exactly the same whether I live in California or Georgia (ok, sales tax will vary slightly, but that's it). Whenever I've done the math on moving to a cheaper area, it has not worked - even with cheaper housing, the vastly lower wages leave me with materially less money to spend on the other stuff that's not cheaper.

[wil421]

Material things are not cost of living!

You gotta compare apples to apples. I'd rather not have the majority of my paycheck go to housing. I'd rather buy than rent and I don't see that happening anywhere I've looked in Cali.

[devonkim]

For the amount of profit I would have made off of merely buying a house and holding for a few years if I had stayed in the Bay Area, I would be able to buy most of the houses I'd consider with just cash. You really can't get that kind of ludicrous cash making opportunity if 1. your ceiling on pay in your profession is capped firmly leaving you insufficient investment capital 2. your local economy is not booming with lots of investors to drive up asset prices. Nobody's going to buy a middle class house in rural North Carolina and leave within 6 years with $350k+ residual profit, but that's fairly common for those I know in the Bay Area and NYC that bought before 2010.

Whether these things are sustainable is one thing, but NYC and SF have always been expensive areas to live and at the same time among the best chances to grow a career in most fields. Otherwise, there'd be little growth in cities. It's not like the millions of people in urban areas are all stupid or too young to think about families and renting v. buying.

[irishloop]

I used to work for a company based in Conyers, GA, and would hang out in Atlanta when I traveled there. It is a great city. However, there is a huge cultural shift outside of Atlanta for people used to Silicon Valley or NYC, because the rest of Georgia is definitely... different.

[treehau5_]

You say this as if it isn't true for NYC or SV either. I think the bubble is bigger in those places and makes it easier to plug your ears and turn the eye in NYC or SV. Ever been to Yonkers? Inside San Jose?

[cyanbane]

I think it is different in the way that most big cities are when compared to other parts of their states. San Fran and East California might be one of the better examples. Marietta is very similar Merced; Athens is similar to Berkeley. I don't think Atlanta is very different in that regard. (From Athens, longtime Atlanta resident - spent a lot of time in Cali, lots of family out in Sacramento/Berkeley)

[flanbiscuit]

I was just in Calistoga (near Napa) and I saw houses with Trump signs, so yeah there definitely tends to be a city vs rural shift in politics even in states like CA.

[taeric]

My understanding is that the difference is most other states highly fund their large city.

[sndean]

It's the same for Washington DC as well. You can easily drive 20 miles southwest and get stuck behind a tractor while driving past corn fields.

It's pretty similar for every city I've been to (including Atlanta). Drive an hour away and it's a completely different place.

[jessaustin]

Haha you could still be within a mile of DC after driving 20 minutes. It takes a little longer to find a corn field.

[sndean]

> after driving 20 minutes

After driving 20 miles, not 20 minutes... Maybe ~20 minutes if it's 3:00AM on a Monday going west on I-66.

[quantumhobbit]

You didn't hear any banjo music did you?

But seriously the city to country gradient is pretty steep outside Atl. However I doubt if rural Georgia is all that different from rural upstate New York. I know people who grew up in both and it sounds about the same. You can just get there faster in Georgia.

[ryguytilidie]

I always see posts like this on HN. Whether its Portland, NYC, Chicago, Philly, Atlanta, Austin, etc etc etc. Why do people feel like they need to "convince" others else to move to the place they live or that the startup scene is "more real" than they currently believe?

[barleymash]

Why can't it just be a friendly "looking out for others" type of thing? I definitely feel like there is a sense of camaraderie in the online communities that I frequent. I just took it as a tip to fellow HackerNews readers and engineers that Atlanta is a great opportunity for people in the tech industry. Why does there need to be any ulterior motive than that?

[awinder]

It's a reaction to being told countless times that the only way to "make it for reals" is to uproot your life and move to the SF area. Which is an incredibly common occurrence for those of us not in the valley.

[jasonjei]

I live in SF (from Phoenix, AZ), but I agree, I don't think a particular locality really matters. The Internet has made remote development possible for most startups. In fact, if Kernel.org (Linux) was considered a startup, it's a project founded by people not from a single city.

I understand to some degree the reasons startup people want people within 20 miles of them. But if somebody is happy living in Anchorage, AK, why should I convince this person to move where I am, as long as GH issues are being punched out?

That said, I love SF, motorcycling to Marin, and I don't think I'll move anywhere else for the distant future.

[joshmn]

Pride is a thing.

Having said, don't come to Minnesota. Any of you. It is not nice here at all.

I like my little slice of paradise.

[lgleason]

This is common with Atlanta (and I'm sure other cities). It is a big marketing town. Coke for example, which mastered the ability to sell overpriced sugar water, was started there. The old over-stating things....if you say it enough, maybe you and everyone else will believe it.

[atlstartup404]

> if you say it enough, maybe you and everyone else will believe it.

Sounds like you all up and down this comment section

[lgleason]

trolling I see..

[clueless123]

Tech people are lucky enough to have a choice where to work. Cheap rent and low cost of living are not enough to attract talent.. There always has to be a "something cool" on a city to be attractive.

[rak00n]

I think everyone is entitled to that choice irrespective of field of profession.

[avn2109]

The problem is that Atlanta's built environment is literally the textbook example of tastelessness and inefficiency. "City" is a loose term for a centerless amalgamation of car-centric sprawl.

[westbywest]

As learned from relatives living there, Altanta's long-term water situation kinda frightens me. Their aquifer (aka Lake Lanier) can't sustain the anticipated population, and it looks like fights are brewing with downstream parties like Florida, who also have legal share of that water.

[gt565k]

http://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/5/11/11657372/westside-atlant...

[quantumhobbit]

I used to live in Atlanta. It felt like the city had so much potential for tech but just wasn't there yet. There were so many smart and driven people at Georgia Tech and other places. And there seemed to be a business community that would be capable of supporting those people but those two communities hadn't figured out how to deal with each other yet. This was in 2011. I would love for Atlanta to become a real hub and would gladly move back if given a chance.

[atlstartup404]

Check out the Atlanta Tech Village and surrounding area. http://atlantatechvillage.com/

Tons of opportunity

[lgleason]

Ah, ATV. I know a lot of tech people in town who will not touch that place with a 10 foot pole. Might partially be because it is in Buckhead which is a very pretentious neighborhood. Lots of men buttoned up shirts, suits, women in pencil skirts, people getting cosmetic surgery etc. and everything is about image. ATV has a similar vibe, and if you look at who gets the majority of the press it's not the tech people, it's the marketing and business ones.

Hell the non-tech founder of it said at one point that Ruby is really easy and with a small amount of training a founder should have the skills necessary to create a startup. That is not someone who values tech or the skills that go into it. So if your an engineer why would you go somewhere where there is a good chance that a marketing/business type will take the credit for your work and ideas, probably try to take more of your equity than they would in Silicon Valley? And with all of that Atlanta companies do not have exits that are even close to what we see in the valley.

[spyspy]

In truth, you could make much the same argument about most cities that aren't SF, NYC or Seattle. No one city is going to be the next SV. What we're seeing is a national transition away from the suburbs and back into large metro areas. The first cities had a leg up due to being the epicenters of various industries but everyone else is catching up.

[saturdaysaint]

I agree. It's funny/interesting to me how everyone everywhere has been holding up their local food scene as a special point of pride recently, when just about every city in America in 2016 is teeming with dozens of good local restaurants, microbreweries, coffee roasters, etc.

[oftenwrong]

Is it practical to live in Atlanta without a car?

[michaelcampbell]

Not like it would be in NY or London, no. You can do it, and many do, but it's more work than most would consider "practical".

Uber is pretty good though when you need it.

[cloakandswagger]

Absolutely not, and don't believe anyone who says otherwise. While I don't doubt that it is technically possible to get by in Atlanta without a car, your quality of life will be affected severely.

[elif]

Yeah, but especially if you plan it right. Over the last 6-8 years the bicycle infrastructure has blossomed, but only on pretty specific routes. If you both live and work along those routes, it is really easy (except for taxis and trucks shamelessly parking in the bike lane).

That said, I don't live on one of those routes and don't really encounter much trouble cycling or boosted boarding on the roads.

[quantumhobbit]

I had a car that I pretty much never used when I lived downtown. It was broken into and I didn't notice for a week. The only thing they stole was a 12-pack of Coca Cola, which is the most Atlanta thing ever.

When I moved just a little further out the car was absolutely needed.

[wil421]

Yes if you live and work downtown but you'll be at a disadvantage. Atlanta is very much a car city especially if you have or want kids and want to live outside the city.

[dcole2929]

I'm actually looking at moving to ATL soon for personal reasons (read GF). What are some of these tech companies with satellite offices there? I tried doing a search for up and coming startups and outside of a few names like Square and Mailchimp wasn't finding much

[samsolomon]

If you want to work for a startup, check out companies in the Atlanta Tech Village directory. Most of them are pretty small, but every few months a company hits the 40-person mark and move out. Terminus and IO Education moved out pretty recently. http://atlantatechvillage.com/membership/current-villagers/

If you're looking for a larger company, Salesforce Pardot and Cox have a huge presence here. NCR is moving their headquarters to Midtown.

[koonsolo]

The company where I work has a satellite office in Atlanta (with software developers).

The main reason is that the time difference with Europe is small, so that developers on both sides still have some work hours overlap.

[eranation]

I agree. I live here for the past 6 years. Tons of opportunities. Beyond mailchimp, pindrop and other famous startups you have VMWare, IBM, Oracle, Square, Amazon and Microsoft and even Google hiring for the local offices here. For the commute comment, I live in the suburbs (Alpharetta) and just take the park and ride to Buckhead. Great housing prices (still), great schools, very low crime, and cool things to do. Wouldn't move to SF or NY even if they quadruple my salary.

[hehheh]

How's the political climate? It doesn't look so great from my initial Googling: Georgia is one of the states suing over the transgender bathroom issue. Per Wikipedia Georgia doesn't include sexual orientation in their laws against employer discrimination. Anything else folks from SF might be concerned about?

[s_baby]

Atlanta has the 3rd largest LGBT population behind SF/Seattle and is pretty diverse in general. It's the other parts of Georgia that can seem backwards. Same goes for North Carolina. A person from SF would feel at home in Asheville or Raleigh despite everything going on in the news.

[ethbro]

As the snark goes "the worst thing about Atlanta is that it's in Georgia."

The rest of the state also has a proud tradition of hating public transit and attempting to defund MARTA (public rail & bus transit) in various ways. Punchline: no operational funding from state, but state historically limited how MARTA could spend its own sales tax revenue on operations. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Atlanta_Rapid_Tra... and http://saportareport.com/a-marta-story-why-the-state-never-a... for some hilarious political hijinks.

Cobb County (immediately west of the city) also (a) is unwilling to contribute to MARTA, (b) has a terrible traffic problem, (c) is currently burning money to build an overpass over 30 miles of existing interstate to solve the problem forever (see: http://www.ajc.com/news/local/mile-reversible-toll-lane-what... ), & (d) refuses to even consider rail.

[dodders]

Do you have a source for that?

From wikipedia [1] Atlanta has the 3rd largest percentage, but it's 11th for total population. Admittedly those figures are for 2005, but I wouldn't expect Atlanta to make up that much on the top 3 in the last 10 years?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite...

[s_baby]

I meant density not total population.

[wil421]

California is also one of the states being sued [0]. You obviously don't know much about Atlanta but seem to know a lot about Georgia by browsing wkikipedia. Our LGBT community is one of the largest in the US.

California probably has more backwards people than Georgia fighting against stuff like this.

[0]http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/26/california-tra...

[MrMullen]

Because our population is 4 times larger.

[tedunangst]

That's a peculiar reply. Like it's ok to have bigots, as long as there's lots of them?

[MrMullen]

No, but even if California's BPC (Bigot Per Capita) was half of Georgia's, we would still have twice as many Bigots as Georgia.

[jameskegel]

Your response comes off aggressive, and I think that detracts from the validity of your comment.

[drakonandor]

Does shutting down nonsense posts really require perfect civility in the reply?

It's the same pattern I see often here... made up story incoming. The original person who spouts nonsense is never hold to account, especially if what they're saying fits with the status quo.

Person1: Trump is literally a lizard person!

> Person2: You're an idiot, and here are some facts that show he's not.

> > Person3: Whoa whoa, you're probably right but be civil!

[wil421]

If you want to see aggressive comments check out Reddit or YouTube.

It was not my intention. The parent did a quick Wikipedia search and came to the conclusion all of Georgia hates LGBT, better not move there. It's offensive to me as a native.

[pjlegato]

That's irrational. The comment's validity is logically unrelated to how aggressively it was delivered.

[samsolomon]

Atlanta is very different from the rest of the state. The city has people with pretty diverse views on things and is incredibly accepting when it comes to social issues.

[chatmasta]

You mean is it a giant bubble where everyone shares the same liberal views, reinforces each other, and ostracizes any dissenting opinions?

[pjlegato]

Moreover, ostracizes any dissenting opinions while simultaneously loudly trumpeting the value of tolerance for diversity.

[lgleason]

Have witnessed this in Atlanta......

[gogopuppygogo]

I have no doubt. I am in Chicago and recently found out about http://www.sockfancy.com and if they are crushing it I'm sure that the rest of the scene is doing well!

[enkiv2]

Is the article implying that Atlanta is special? I feel like if you intend to start a (non-localized) business, anywhere is better than SF, and the lower the cost of living the better.

[imatworkyo]

Who in Atlanta is paying 200k? I am just getting off a job hunt and was hard pressed to find much above 130 for senior devs.

[rebelidealist]

How is the weather in ATL?

[michaelcampbell]

Hot in the summer, mostly pleasant the rest of the year. It snows every other year or so, but doesn't stick, generally. There are short spring and fall seasons, but they do exist.

Between 7 and 11 rain days per month. We actually get more rain than Seattle, but on fewer days.

Any complaints of "bad weather" generally equate to "it's too hot" or "I don't like it". For general human living, it's quite moderate.

[westbywest]

Hot, dry, humid, in varying quantities during the warm season. Occasional bouts of days-long rain when the remnants of tropical storm systems come ashore.

[piptastic]

Hot and humid in the summer. Rains frequently.

It's the South.

[gnufied]

State of Georgia mandates 0 day paid maternity leave. Was quite shocking for me in this day and age - having moved from London.

Also although I like Atlanta, the casual racism comment is not unfounded. For example, we have bunch of white only elementary schools and then we have some with black majority ones. Also putting my son through this system convinced me schools like to keep this segregation.

[s_baby]

>For example, we have bunch of white only elementary schools and then we have some with black majority ones. Also putting my son through this system convinced me schools like to keep this segregation.

Does London not have school districts? If you have a neighborhood that is predominantly black then that's going to be represented in school demographics. I believe that's how it works everywhere in US.