[fsloth]

If we are discussing actual history now I think it's a bit of a hyperbole to claim all of western civilization as greek inheritance as this view trivializes the intellectual and cultural developments before and after the greek golden age. Yes, it offered great seeds for many things but those seeds were grown to fruitition by other people. It is very hard for me to see much living intellectual continuity from the ancient to the modern greece. The area was reduced to a backwater serfdom for centuries. Even the ancient texts had to be refound through islamic sources in the early renaissance. You can't just take Aristotle and Euclid and claim that they offer all of the keys to our modern civilization. Some - definetly.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> You can't just take Aristotle and Euclid and claim that they offer all of the keys to our modern civilization. Some - definetly.

I won't really contest this. Yes, Greece is today and has been for the last few hundreds of years an intellectual backwater. That's the course of history, right? We've had our five thousand ish years of dominance. Who can ask for more?

I also agree that many other cultures laid the ground for the Greek civilisation- the ancient Greeks themselves liked to say their civilisation came from Egypt.

I say in another post that we should be really speaking of a human civilisation (and thank whatever deities, or blind luck, that we have it). Civilisation does not stop at national borders, fortunately.

Also: big pinch of salt; I did say that at the very beginning.

Still, I'd like it to be remembered that one particular people was very influential and went down in history not because they slaughtered thousands or millions, but because they produced a lot of knowledge.

I'm proud of this as a Greek but we should all be, it's our shared heritage and we must remember that we are at our best when we build, not when we destroy.

[vacri]

You're wearing some extremely hefty rose-coloured nationalistic glasses. For example, the golden period was very early in the story, isn't yet 3000 years old, yet you're claiming 5000 years of dominance?

But ultimately, it's silly to have this kind of nationalistic association, because the Greeks of the golden period had a very different society to modern Greeks. Where is your Athenian direct democracy? Where is your Spartan warrior cult? Where are your slaves? Where is the widespread demand for Greek-educated workers? Where are your city-states, each having their own international relations and cultural aspects?

And, ultimately, where is the modern Greek's love of learning and knowledge, for which we lionise ancient Greece? As far as I can tell, the modern Greek is no more interested in education than any other typical modern European. I live in the biggest Greek-population city outside of Greece itself, in the Greek-est suburb, and my experiences are that modern Greeks love life and family most, and aren't so interested in higher learning, art, and music (no more than any other demographic). Yes, ex-pat Greeks are a little different culturally to native Greeks, but not that much. It's not like modern Greeks have a particularly notable reputation for education, like Jewish people do.

Ancient and modern Greece are two different places, as were the Greeces in-between, just like modern Italy is not Rome, even though they use the same alphabet.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> You're wearing some extremely hefty rose-coloured nationalistic glasses. For example, the golden period was very early in the story, isn't yet 3000 years old, yet you're claiming 5000 years of dominance?

Let's not have a fight over this. I take the start of the Minoan civ to be the beginning, some 3.5 kya, and the fall of Constantinople to be the end of the Good Old Days, followed by a few hundred years of decline. That makes very nearly 5k years.

I resent the accusation of nationalism. I can wear my rose-tinted glasses all I like (and you're free to laugh at me all you wish) but I'm pretty sure my right to be proud of my heritage does not deny others' right to be proud of theirs [1]. As far as I am concerned a patriot is someone who loves their country, a nationalist is someone who hates everyone else's. I am very confident I'm not the latter.

>> Ancient and modern Greece are two different places

Totally no objection about this. You can't have 5k ish years of history and remain the same people throughout.

>> It's not like modern Greeks have a particularly notable reputation for education, like Jewish people do.

That's alright. Another part of my definition of "patriot" is someone who loves their country regardless of its history, or current condition. It's nationalists who long for the Good Old Days (of Empire, usually). Although for the kind of Good Old Days I'm talking about, of brilliant intellectual achievements, I would make an exception and say that I do wish we hadn't declined as far as we have.

So, happy now? You broke my heart and rubbed my face in my own dirt. Can't an ancient people be left to decline in peace?

___________

[1] If the descendants of the Mongols or the Brits feel robbed of their right to be proud of being the biggest butchers in history, I consider that to be their problem.