[pimlottc]

> Many [programmers] work jobs that are intellectually stimulating, but ultimately leave nothing behind. There is a large population of technical people who would enjoy contributing to something lasting.

This hits pretty close to home.

[keyle]

Same here. I'm battling with this thought a lot. Beyond jobs, I think there should be communities of developers, designers, producers, writers, getting together and figuring out this stuff. And I don't mean open source projects. Let's group together smart people wanting to make a difference and have a hit list of things we (people) actually need. A group that would organise people into mission driven development.

I'm so fed up of getting paid to potentially make founders rich. Or to be a small cog in a gigantic machine on a slow decline. I'm also unemployable because I can't buy into the corporate BS anymore. And where I am, there doesn't seem to be design/dev jobs that actually want to make a difference. It's an economy problem.

The startup thing seems to be the best way we go about solving problems in the world today. But if you happen to _not_ be at the right place at the right time, meeting the right people, poof, it's gone. I can't imagine that an advanced specie would operate this way. We should be focused on solving problems, instead of being focused on escaping the rat race, to then be able to solve problems.

I'm glad I am not alone seeking purpose. There goes a point where you're technically advanced, you have itches to fix things and all you see is the broken economy of consumerism and "let's give kids video clips and smileys, derp".

[wtracy]

> And I don't mean open source projects.

Then what do you mean? You described exactly what some of the largest, most successful FOSS projects (Firefox, KDE, Gnome, Libre Office, FreeBSD) are already doing.

> Let's group together smart people wanting to make a difference and have a hit list of things we (people) actually need.

Well, the FSF maintains a list of "high priority Free Software projects" that need help, but it's strongly colored by the FSF's politics: http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/

[Natanael_L]

Sounds like his thought is more about building infrastructure, and even non-technical solutions (as in rethinking policy, scientific research projects, etc).

Like a global collaborative project to improve just about everything.

[keyle]

Thanks that FSF list is great actually.

[coldtea]

>You described exactly what some of the largest, most successful FOSS projects (Firefox, KDE, Gnome, Libre Office, FreeBSD) are already doing.

They "make a difference"? How exactly? At best, I can understand that for Firefox.

[sho_hn]

> They "make a difference"? How exactly?

KDE so far:

* Is used productively by large numbers of users doing cool stuff, from your fellow developers to the scientists controlling the Large Hadron Collider to the VFX artists who made Gravity

* Helped popularize open source as a development and licensing model, which now comprises much of the industry

* Helped Linux get attenttion and grow, ditto

* Wrote technology in use on billions of computers (KHTML -> WebKit, large parts of Qt via tight symbiosis, taglib, ...)

* Had a strong effect on industry tool choices (e.g. raising up CMake into the de-facto cross-platform C++ build system by adopting and helping improve it with requests and code, or hosting the valgrind bug tracker, or helping make SVN scale after adopting it as replacement for CVS)

* Has made many hundreds of people more experienced and competent engineers through providing mentorship, and enabled them to apply those skills and that knowledge elsewhere

Most of these are ongoing.

Considering how easy it is in this industry to spend your days making things no one needs or wants, or worse, actively screws over people, I'm pretty happy with how I spent my last ~12 years as a KDE developer :)

[wtracy]

By providing quality software that lets me and thousands of others get useful work done, and not forcing us to accept onerous licensing terms in the process?

But hey, none of those can cure cancer, so what's the point, right?

[coldtea]

>By providing quality software that lets me and thousands of others get useful work done, and not forcing us to accept onerous licensing terms in the process?

That software (desktop Linux/UNIX) comes for free, and yet, only 1% or less (from browser stats of major traffic points) seem to opt to use it as their desktop.

Is this the kind of difference the parent was describing? Letting a small minority of people avoid "onerous licensing terms" that billions of others are OK and can get "get useful work done" with?

In the server, of course, it's a whole different story.

[sangnoir]

> That software (desktop Linux/UNIX) comes for free, and yet, only 1% or less (from browser stats of major traffic points) seem to opt to use it as their desktop.

>Is this the kind of difference the parent was describing?

Cancer kills 171.2 per 100,000[1]. So by your metrics, the Linux desktop folks make a bigger difference than curing cancer as 1% > 0.1712%

1. Cancer mortility. see https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics

[intended]

That used to be what the net and all of the coder based communities were about. Thats why I used to come to slashdot, or HN when I found the net.

And we've reached that point when the creatures (the firms and technologies built by those people) of that culture are diverging from ideals of the culture.

But the above comment is inherently empty - any successful system will eventually expand till it reaches a barrier of complexity which cannot be overcome on its own.

Figuring out what to do is the challenge.

The things that worked were coders having free time to spend on interesting projects. But I suspect, that we've better understood the value of coder time, and the major firms are now paying the correct amount to keep coders busy.

The market BS is a good thing for coders in the short and medium term. People who understand finance and strategy are willing to pay what it takes today, to own a chance at being richer tomorrow.

If you have a neat hobby? communities will help you get better at it. Maybe if its really good, you can convert that into a product/firm and possibly a good exit. If that happens you won't have to worry about it ever, and you'll be that thing which is respected among your peers - a succesful serial entrepreneur. You would have done the hard thing (product creation, team management, finance, successful exit).

In a group of people who respect ability and excellence, its hard not to think of the guy who did the harder job as meritorious.

In short: I don't think theres a market solution for a new market normal.

Its easier to figure out you are cut of a different cloth, recognize the market dynamics for what they are, and make time to build whatever it is you want to build.

Eventually a lot of other coders are going to come to similar realizations (provided the cultural bubble online isn't too distortive)

[pjc50]

Some friends of mine came up with https://www.mysociety.org/ as an answer to this.

> "We should be focused on solving problems, instead of being focused on escaping the rat race, to then be able to solve problems."

Sometimes one person's problem is another person's solution, and vice versa; this is where so much of politics comes from. A lot of people are invested in making sure certain problems stay unsolved, or even unacknowledged.

[vijayr]

instead of being focused on escaping the rat race

This resonates. How would it work in practice though? Many people want to contribute, but they are stuck as they have to provide for their family.

Also, how do we know what to work on? Someone linked to FSF projects - are there other lists, places we can go to, to find actual tasks/projects to work on? Unless there are incentives (not money/fame, but seeing our efforts put to good use/getting feedback etc) people would lose interest. It would be awesome if we can curate such a list - pharma, food/agriculture, mental health etc. And break down this list into smaller, manageable tasks. I guess many people can find 5-10 hours a week to contribute.

[keyle]

Yeah you get what I meant. There is a disconnect with what we should be doing and the current state of having to provide for our families.

That said, I'm no communist and I'm not advocating that. I just find it sad that we're more rewarding people working on farming other people's holidays photos rather than pushing humanity forward (and no I don't meant going to Mars, although that gave me a kick!).

[odbol_]

I think the First Things First manifesto is a good start: http://firstthingsfirst2014.org

[keyle]

That is great thank you.

[leesalminen]

Same here. I was just talking with a friend last night about how software developers should have a creed, like how doctors have the Hippocratic oath. We could potentially cause far more harm than doctors nowadays.

[mamp]

Interesting, but note that the Hippocratic Oath doesn't work so well with preventable errors in health care the 3rd leading cause of death in the US https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/0...

[bthdonohue]

As part of my computer science program in college, we studied the ACM's Software Engineering Code of Ethics and Professional Practice, which in effect is what you describe. http://www.acm.org/about/se-code

[cmrx64]

And as an aside, the ACM is currently collecting comments on revisions to their code of conduct. http://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/code-2018/