[eveningcoffee]

Considering past occurrences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal and general behaviour in online market places (my last experience was that the product was advertised to be shipped from Germany (expect fast delivery), but arrived a month later from China) then it should not come as very big surprise (I am not saying that this is normal or acceptable, but that it is not very surprising).

My question is that what is the cause of this general fraudulent behaviour? Does it have some historical roots? Does it come from lack of actual functioning oversight?

Another anecdotal case: try asking for directions in China. Even when person does not know the correct directions, they do not mind to direct you, and when confronted, they refuse to admit that they do not know. Is this mindset result of constant fear of repressions, or it runs deeper into the history of the society (say it is also present in Taiwan?).

I am not accusing anybody in anything, I just would like to understand.

[hzhou321]

Historically scientists are lonely people who are (mostly) motivated by seeking truth or knowledge and satisfying curiosity instead of money or fame. Most people are practical and are motivated by money or fame more than satisfying curiosity. So most people are pursuing jobs rather than science. Fraudulent behavior is simply a result of seeking shortest path (shortcut) to a goal. When the goal is (short term) money and fame, and when the gain of taking the shortcut of fraud is bigger than the negative impact, then the popularity of the short cut is well expected.

So the problem is we reward so-called scientist too much (in terms of money or status). Scientists were historically not rewarded by money or status. In fact I don't think there is traditionally a career of science. People then were doing science on the side of their regular jobs (such as engineers or teachers or nobles who don't really need a job). Only when the reward of doing science is detached (to certain degree) from the reward of money and fame, can we truly prevent the fraudulent behavior.

On the other hand, the allure of money and fame probably can never be truly detached for any normal human, so fraudulent behavior is part of the human nature. It ebbs and flows. There is no need to make a big fuss about it.

PS: from what I heard, China today has so much (relative to its capacity) science money floating around and that got to distort the goal of science significantly.

[maxander]

I would have a hard time swallowing the argument that we pay scientists too much, or that society respects them too much. A distant observer might think this could be the case since, from their perspective, what they see as "scientists" are celebrated professors, showered with job stability, upper-middle-class incomes and book deals. But those lucky sods are vastly outnumbered by postdocs and tenure-track faculty, who work thankless hours at minimal pay and who could put their brains to work anywhere else for better reward. Those are the "typical scientist," on average, these days, and if we paid them any less they could barely afford to eat.

The problem is the imbalance- a postdoc really really wants to get tenure someday, because the only alternative is for his career to peter out and to end up working ignominiously in industry (as a second-rate software engineer, most likely.) And the number of tenure positions that could possibly be available is an order of magnitude fewer than the number of smart people competing for them. So he'll possibly "cut corners" to get there, despite the devotion to his field that made him choose that career and not something reasonable, like finance or software engineering. Academia is tenure or bust- there's no stable middle option.

There is a correction under way as people start to realize that academia is no longer a feasible career path, in the same way that the NFL isn't. So I'm hopeful that things will stabilize in regards to scientific integrity regardless- but, then we'll have to figure out who is going to do the science when we can't rely on an army of poorly paid geniuses.

[hzhou321]

I won't deny the reality of modern day science worker. But the fact of they are paid/respected at minimum does not justify their motivation. Just like a typical minimum wage worker is not doing the work out of pleasure, a typical postdoc is not pursuing a career of pure knowledge. Of course there are some component in it, but from what I see, they are pursuing a career -- a tenure as you put it, an end result that is secure in income and high in status of respect and rich in freedom -- even when that is more of an illusion. So the bottom line is I don't believe there are as much people as many scientists today that are motivated by curiosity alone. They are pursuing money and fame, even when that is an illusion (to certain extent).

The current science career is more of an engineering career, where people have clear goals with constant feasibility assessment and motivated and encouraged to seek short cuts.

So I am not saying we are paying scientists too much. I am saying scientists don't need to be paid, only need to be sustained. Not a many people would be happy for a career that is merely sustained, but not many people are truly born to be a scientist -- think about Einstein being happy at a patent office.

EDIT:

So I agree that look at the way today we do science, it is of concern. However, I think that is largely a mislabeling. Today's science career is more of a engineering practice; and look at the way we do engineering, we are doing fine today. Some place some people build a shoddy bridge, it is something of gossip, but not much of concern.

Think about it: science is not supposed to produce a product (medicine in this context) but it is supposed to answer some questions (not given by the society but of one's own). To answer a demand or solve a question (with a belief it can be answered), that is engineering.

Of course, engineering is important. And there is nothing wrong for a few people pursuing science on the side while doing their engineer jobs.

[maxander]

Ok, the vision of scientists as an ascetic class only appealing to the dyed-in-the-wool seekers of knowledge has some appeal. But, there's a problem there, too- sure, Einstein would still have published his breakthroughs, but many of the thousands of researchers whose works were the basis for his wouldn't have. The pace of scientific progress we're accustomed to now is the product of the work of thousands upon thousands of scientists; the contribution of celebrated geniuses like Einstein are dramatic but represent a rounding error compared to the whole rate of progress. We need a way to recruit and retain the rank-and-file ordinary-human researchers as well, and that requires compensation somewhat proportional to the effort they're putting in.

[hzhou321]

I wouldn't go out and say Einstein is a rounding error :).

When we say science progress is built on top of giant's shoulder, that giant don't have to be and often is not just other/previous scientists. Engineering, culture, or even witch crafting all have contributed to science.

We need a lot of rank-and-file ordinary-human doing their ordinary works out of ordinary motivations, they will provide the basis necessary for the a few true scientists to question the known and explore the unknown.

[_yvjs]

There was an interesting study looking at measures of honesty and economic growth: https://www.uea.ac.uk/documents/3154295/7054672/Honesty+pape....

Chinese nationals were in the top 2 of both measures of dishonesty (which didn't correlate all that well in general, so I'm not sure "honesty" is all that easy to measure), while British nationals were in the bottom 2 of both. One of the correlations they found was that rates of honesty were correlated with rates of Protestant Christianity.

[rootkit55]

It would be interesting to see results of that game played for a million dollars. You go into a room alone and flip a coin. If you flip heads you win the million dollars. If you flip tails you win nothing.

It's also interesting that in situations like the Wells Fargo scandal, honesty didn't even matter. If you were honest, you were simply fired.

[rasz_pl]

Face. In China (and Asia in general) it is perfectly acceptable to LIE in your face if the alternative could be embarrassing. Dont know something? Lie. Competition is better? Lie. Will miss the deadline? Lie with a wide smile while shaking your hand. Lying itself is _not_ embarrassing.

[daodedickinson]

Socialism, in the sense that is completely salvagable amid Chinese capitalism, is the situation of everyone having to talk like a politician.

[clort]

> asking for directions in China

If you don't know something and you show your ignorance in this way, then you lose face massively.

If they are involved in this (you ask them for directions) then you are tainting them with your lack of face.

They are hideously embarrassed and will tell you anything to make you go away.

[asddddd]

> general behaviour in online market places (my last experience was that the product was advertised to be shipped from Germany (expect fast delivery), but arrived a month later from China)

Sounds more like a drop shipper reselling stuff from Aliexpress or similar, not necessarily anything to do with a Chinese seller. They add a hefty markup and ship directly to you. It's particularly popular with counterfeits ("replicas").